General 500 Failure

[honda]

Another week slips by, head removed again and all checked out ok. Car will eventually start but runs extremely rough until running temp reached.
Dealer still being non commited as to what to do. Phoned Fiat CS Tuesday they are now dealing with this. Technician from slough being sent, plus new ECU and waiting security codes for ECU. Will keep all of you informed of the outcome.

No faults found on ECU no EML:bang::bang::bang: arrrgh!!!!!

 

[Mark Elvin]

Remind me, how old & how many miles on the car?

 

[honda]

Registered November 2008

9000 miles

1 new cambelt 1 head gasket

 

[Mark Elvin]

Hmm, a bit old to be asking for a new car.

BUT, I would most certainly be asking for a brand new, factory fresh engine.

 

[AdamP1991]

Head gasket going was problem due to dodgy work the previous time round damaging the new head gasket, or even they didnt bother replacing it after changing the valves (very poor show).

You say 2 bent rods... are you refering to the con rods? The only time rods will bend really is under very bad detonation and hydro-locking, which i suppose *could* happen from drawing a lot of coolant into the cylinder through the head gasket but it unlikely.

I'm sort of feeling we're only getting half the story here There is very little reason why fiat would bother replacing con-rods due to the labour involved. The engine would have to be stripped down, removed from the car, completely rebuilt etc. It would probably require it being sent to fiat as i doubt very much they have the facilities to do a full engine rebuild in the dealership.

Our old Impreza WRX had a spun big end at 12k and all they ever considered doing was changing the engine. There would be no point spending money on hours and hours of labour, risking something going wrong and having to do it again when they could just fit a new engine and be done with it.

Am I looking into this too deeply? I'm just feeling we dont have the whole picture...

 

[zanes]

The fact that it is now running roughly until operating temp sounds more likely to be electronical related that mechanical I would have thought?

 

[306maxi]

Head gasket going was problem due to dodgy work the previous time round damaging the new head gasket, or even they didnt bother replacing it after changing the valves (very poor show).

You say 2 bent rods... are you refering to the con rods? The only time rods will bend really is under very bad detonation and hydro-locking, which i suppose *could* happen from drawing a lot of coolant into the cylinder through the head gasket but it unlikely.

I'm sort of feeling we're only getting half the story here There is very little reason why fiat would bother replacing con-rods due to the labour involved. The engine would have to be stripped down, removed from the car, completely rebuilt etc. It would probably require it being sent to fiat as i doubt very much they have the facilities to do a full engine rebuild in the dealership.

Our old Impreza WRX had a spun big end at 12k and all they ever considered doing was changing the engine. There would be no point spending money on hours and hours of labour, risking something going wrong and having to do it again when they could just fit a new engine and be done with it.

Am I looking into this too deeply? I'm just feeling we dont have the whole picture...

There's a pattern with these "my car is screwed posts"

Quite often bad english and almost always half a story.

 

[honda]

4 weeks down and into week 5 still not repaired but we are getting there.

2 Fiat technicians came to play with her and spent 2 days scratching there heads:devil::devil:. At last a prognosis, there is a problem with the timing variator (variable valve timing). Hurrah we thought get 1 ordered and repaired by today.
How wrong was that :bang: spoke with dealership today has been ordered but coming from Spain!!! 5-7 days delivery. Fiat CS phoned today and offered 150 pounds of vouchers to soften the blow which my wife accepted ( will get her a 2nd year service for free , if we eventually get her back) At least things are moving forward and CS have been a great help, though I would have demanded more!!!!

Paul

 

[T14086]

plus new ECU and waiting security codes for ECU.

what codes?

I'm sort of feeling we're only getting half the story here There is very little reason why fiat would bother replacing con-rods due to the labour involved

I agree,cheapest option by far would be fit short engine

 

[EssexStu]

Head gasket going was problem due to dodgy work the previous time round damaging the new head gasket, or even they didnt bother replacing it after changing the valves (very poor show).

You say 2 bent rods... are you refering to the con rods? The only time rods will bend really is under very bad detonation and hydro-locking, which i suppose *could* happen from drawing a lot of coolant into the cylinder through the head gasket but it unlikely.

I'm sort of feeling we're only getting half the story here There is very little reason why fiat would bother replacing con-rods due to the labour involved. The engine would have to be stripped down, removed from the car, completely rebuilt etc. It would probably require it being sent to fiat as i doubt very much they have the facilities to do a full engine rebuild in the dealership.

Our old Impreza WRX had a spun big end at 12k and all they ever considered doing was changing the engine. There would be no point spending money on hours and hours of labour, risking something going wrong and having to do it again when they could just fit a new engine and be done with it.

Am I looking into this too deeply? I'm just feeling we dont have the whole picture...

Not always the case, doing Conrod's on a fiat engine is usually pretty simple and can be done in situ (have done a few times under warranty for noise). Subaru engines are flat engine's.. and from experience a nasty strip down/rebuild procedure, hence they are more costly and cheaper option is to renew.


As for the problem on the car, does sound like u've been put at the back of the list of job's for the dealer to do, but silly comments on here 'demand an engine' it isnt as simple as that. A warranty repair, repaired by an authorised Fiat dealer should be as good as anything done in a factory as the work should be completed to fiat specifications... gaskets, torque's etc etc. If it is then found not to be completed to those standards, then yes you have a case, but if Fiat or the dealer decide the best route is to fix the component rather than renew a complete assembly, odds on its what Fiat have authorised more than the Dealer choice. Its usually easier for the dealer to replace a complete engine than the agro of having a dead car on the ramp while its being stripped, waiting parts then rebuilt etc. I know if i have a gearbox fault i try and get a gearbox replacement rather than strip/rebuild, not due to the complexity but because of ease of repair and down time of the vehicle, but in a time where money is everything, replacing a £5 part to a £2000 part, the £5 with a bit of labour will always win

 

[zanes]

Not always the case, doing Conrod's on a fiat engine is usually pretty simple and can be done in situ (have done a few times under warranty for noise).

If you mean leaving the block and head in place, then yes. After that, "Only" got to remove sump, crankshaft, main journal bearings, big ends, piston, con rods, gudgeon pins etc.

For what it's worth, I would have thought FIAT would have changed out the entire engine, had the old one shipped to a tech centre and ripped it apart to find out exactly what went wrong, and see if it could be a larger issue (assuming it has happened as the OP has described)
And please don't ask "WTF do you know about product support"

 

[EssexStu]

If you mean leaving the block and head in place, then yes. After that, "Only" got to remove sump, crankshaft, main journal bearings, big ends, piston, con rods, gudgeon pins etc.

For what it's worth, I would have thought FIAT would have changed out the entire engine, had the old one shipped to a tech centre and ripped it apart to find out exactly what went wrong, and see if it could be a larger issue (assuming it has happened as the OP has described)
And please don't ask "WTF do you know about product support"

say u've already got the head off for inspection... take the sump off and you can undo the big ends and pop the rods out within a few minutes, no need to touch the crank...

And any dealer, Ford, Fiat, Kia, Volvo, Land Rover, Jaguar etc, all which we are franchises of, wouldnt get as involved as sending the engine away to be inspected by a technical department unless there was mass volume failure. The only time a dealer will do this is when an item is new on the market and they 'Black Box' it, which means even if the instructions are there in the manual, under no circumstance should you strip it, instead you must replace it and then the technical departments will 100% want it back. This happened with the ST170 6 speed gearbox when they first came out on the Focus, the Volvo 5 cylinder engine fitted to the Focus ST (2006 shape), and also on the Multi-air chamber assembly on the new Fiat/alfa engines. There are instructions to strip the multi-air assy but no parts are available to carry out a repair and any broken units they will want back to find out why they have gone wrong (thou they arnt expecting any failures due to heavy pre-production testing)

 

[zanes]

And any dealer, Ford, Fiat, Kia, Volvo, Land Rover, Jaguar etc, all which we are franchises of, wouldnt get as involved as sending the engine away to be inspected by a technical department unless there was mass volume failure. The only time a dealer will do this is when an item is new on the market and they 'Black Box' it, which means even if the instructions are there in the manual, under no circumstance should you strip it, instead you must replace it and then the technical departments will 100% want it back. This happened with the ST170 6 speed gearbox when they first came out on the Focus, the Volvo 5 cylinder engine fitted to the Focus ST (2006 shape), and also on the Multi-air chamber assembly on the new Fiat/alfa engines. There are instructions to strip the multi-air assy but no parts are available to carry out a repair and any broken units they will want back to find out why they have gone wrong (thou they arnt expecting any failures due to heavy pre-production testing)

Fair do's. I'd (stupidly) assumed all businesses operated like the one I work for with regards to premature/unexpected failures.

 

[EssexStu]

Fair do's. I'd (stupidly) assumed all businesses operated like the one I work for with regards to premature/unexpected failures.

If it were my £12k on a car id be wanting new, i know that... but its the way they work... all the 500 engine/gearboxs have been prooven for a few years now and the tens of 1000's they make, 1 or 2 failures on a large sample wouldnt warrant a full investigation

 

[zanes]

If it were my £12k on a car id be wanting new, i know that... but its the way they work... all the 500 engine/gearboxs have been prooven for a few years now and the tens of 1000's they make, 1 or 2 failures on a large sample wouldnt warrant a full investigation

Yes, I see that know. Our entire fleet of products is <1200 units, so we can take a different attitude I guess.

 

[306maxi]

Fair do's. I'd (stupidly) assumed all businesses operated like the one I work for with regards to premature/unexpected failures.

But I think what Stu says holds true though. If it's something new a failure could be the beginning of something big, but on a unit as proven and tested as the 1.2 it's just going to be a random failure.

 

[honda]

Hi Guys & Gals,

Just another update for u all, nearly 6 weeks now and still no car. It has now had new timing variator and new cam. However will start but runs very uneven until warm then fine.Dealership promised me it back for Saturday but thats been and gone. Have phoned customer services for the 4th time They informed me that case was closed, its now re-opened for a 2nd time and fiat technos are coming to dealership on Wednesday. In the mean time I have given up on it ever being repaired and had to order a new 1 (it was a 40th b'day present for my wife afterall) 1.2 Passadoble Red hopefully here for 1st of March, then I may just get a little peace and time to enjoy my 130 punto

Paul

 

[T14086]

In the mean time I have given up on it ever being repaired and had to order a new 1 (it was a 40th b'day present for my wife afterall)

:shakehead:this is just shocking, I dont know the whole story but the field engineers should of been out along time ago to sort this out. Would be interesting to hear Fiats response to this!

 

[durukan]

Hi Guys & Gals,

Just another update for u all, nearly 6 weeks now and still no car. It has now had new timing variator and new cam. However will start but runs very uneven until warm then fine.Dealership promised me it back for Saturday but thats been and gone. Have phoned customer services for the 4th time They informed me that case was closed, its now re-opened for a 2nd time and fiat technos are coming to dealership on Wednesday. In the mean time I have given up on it ever being repaired and had to order a new 1 (it was a 40th b'day present for my wife afterall) 1.2 Passadoble Red hopefully here for 1st of March, then I may just get a little peace and time to enjoy my 130 punto

Paul

this is probably caused by MAF or lambda sensor.

 

[honda]

Hi All,

Well a sad day has arrived 58 plate Jive blue is no more .Fiat have delivered a new red 1.2 pop to local dealership at a reduced cost. brand new 10 plate now sitting on my drive till legal on Monday, old reg is KM58 SVC in jive blue do not buy this car if seen on any forecourt as I would not want anyone TO GO THROUGH THE SAME THING AGAIN THAT IVE HAD FOR THE LAST 6 WEEKS. If i knew how to upload a pic of it I would, has put a smile back on my wife's face

Paul