Technical 1995 Fiat Ducato Hymer 2.5 diesel motorhome

[jackwhoo]

The wire to the stop solenoid does not come from the starter motor at all- please do not do that.
If you do you will cause yourself all sorts of problems.

 

[jackwhoo]

The stop solenoid +12v comes from a circuit that is turned on when the key is turned to the dash warning lights on position / the position the key springs back to after start motor turning position

 

[bugsymike]

Just one further point, I would advise finding the correct broken/missing wire rather than trying to use a wire from the starter as that will only provide power when starter turned or the other wire there will be live all the time , meaning it wouldn't switch off.

 

[Communicator]

Hi everyone,

I have some really great news...it's started!.....Yesssss!

I have followed your great advice, I connected up a temp wire from the 12v, initially it didn't start, so I then I went to the next stage as you advised.
I cracked the left side injector nut and it fired up...can't believe it...thought I was hearing things!!....lol, fantastic news! I then continued to bleed the others.
This problem has been going on for some time, a couple of years now.
I will now search for where the supply wire to the start solenoid came from, I was thinking a very long time ago I did find a wire on the floor and didn't know where it had came from. So that must have been the last time I could start it.

I'm going to attached a test wire to the starter motor going to the solenoid, to see if it came from there.

Thank you so so much Mike, Communicator and Jackwhoo for your continued help!
Thank you Communicator also for the link you sent me regarding the waxstat on the Motor Roam website, which I found very interesting for other also info.
Can I ask, are you all members on here with your own campers, or do you work for the site?
A big big thank to all you guys! If I had followed my mechanic I would now have had the fuel pump off, paid for another one put it back on, then it still wouldn't have started. So the next thing I would have been doing is trying to get the injectors out!! I would have ended up in a world of problems!!

Thank you everyone! this site is so great by having people like yourselves on it!
Kind regards, (Yes Its started!!)

I am pleased to learn that you have managed to start the engine.

However please rethink your intention as highlighted above. The the name "stop solemoid" is misleading, it is in effect a "go" soleniod. It requires to be energised for the engine to run, and to be de-energised when the ignition is switched off to stop the engine.

You need a supply which is live both in the ignition on, and starting positions of the key.. The starter solenoid supply (not the main connection to the contact) is only live in the starting position. Unfortunately I do not have the correct diagram, from which to advise you.

 

[bugsymike]

As @ Communicator mentions re wiring, personally I would look for the other end of the original wire, it's got to be hanging down nearby and then all you will need to do is refit the end. Just test to see if correct.

 

[Communicator]

I have been looking closely at the wiring diagrams that I hold relating to the x230 model.
The ignition switch has two connectors, a 3 way, and a 4 way, Pin 2 of the 3 way connector is an appropriate source point, with pin 1 of the 4 way connector being an alternative. It has also occured to me that there may be a "Secondary Sevices" fuse in the circuit.

 

[mancalledhorse]

I am pleased to learn that you have managed to start the engine.

However please rethink your intention as highlighted above. The the name "stop solemoid" is misleading, it is in effect a "go" soleniod. It requires to be energised for the engine to run, and to be de-energised when the ignition is switched off to stop the engine.

You need a supply which is live both in the ignition on, and starting positions of the key.. The starter solenoid supply (not the main connection to the contact) is only live in the starting position. Unfortunately I do not have the correct diagram, from which to advise you.

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your messages!

I've been looking for that 12v supply voltage, to power the start solenoid from the ignition, I have found plenty of 12v wires, which I have been putting a test wire on to. But they are all the same, when I switch off the ignition, the engine keeps running, I can't seem to find a 12v supply that shuts the engine off when I turn the ignition off.
I made a video and tried to attach it, to show you the engine wires, for possible further guidance but unfortunately it wouldn't load as it said the file was too large, took ages to download to my laptop from my phone......lol
I will send some pics instead tomorrow now.

Thanks

Kind regards,
Karl

 

[bugsymike]

I still think if you look hard, the end of the original wire that broke off will be dangling down there somewhere nearby.

 

[mancalledhorse]

I still think if you look hard, the end of the original wire that broke off will be dangling down there somewhere nearby.

Hi Mike,
Will keep looking but I just can't see where its come from?? It's really annoying especially now the engine starts...lol
I do recall something about seeing/finding a wire on the ground very long time ago now and thinking, "where did that come from" that must have been when it didn't start.
Do you think it could have been connected to the starter relay switch?
Wonder if I could run a wire from ignition inside cab through to engine?

Thanks Mike, will keep trying!

Kind regards,
Karl

 

[mancalledhorse]

I have been looking closely at the wiring diagrams that I hold relating to the x230 model.
The ignition switch has two connectors, a 3 way, and a 4 way, Pin 2 of the 3 way connector is an appropriate source point, with pin 1 of the 4 way connector being an alternative. It has also occured to me that there may be a "Secondary Sevices" fuse in the circuit.

Hi,
Thank you for your continued help! I've been looking and testing 12v wires but can't seem to find one that shuts the engine off when ignition turned off.
I've got the ignition open in the cab and was wondering, if I could test and find the correct wire that way and if so, then possibly run a permanent wire through to the engine?
Could the wire have been connected to the starter relay switch?
May I ask what these 3 way and 4 way switches would look like, the ones you have mentioned above?
Tried to attach a vid of engine I made earlier but couldn't send as file to large!!
Thank you,

Kind regards,
Karl

 

[bugsymike]

Hi Mike,
Will keep looking but I just can't see where its come from?? It's really annoying especially now the engine starts...lol
I do recall something about seeing/finding a wire on the ground very long time ago now and thinking, "where did that come from" that must have been when it didn't start.
Do you think it could have been connected to the starter relay switch?
Wonder if I could run a wire from ignition inside cab through to engine?

Thanks Mike, will keep trying!

Kind regards,
Karl

My thoughts are , that it is unlikely to have broken off at both ends and so one end should be hanging down near to the injector pump solenoid, I would have said within 12 inches or so.
It is possible it followed the same route as the wire on your "wax stat" on the injector pump, so may be worth looking near that.
Regarding running a wire as a last resort from the ignition switch, if you do that I would advise putting an inline 3 amp fuse in case it rubs and shorts, being a non factory modification and obviously use a good quality wire suitable for vehicles. By this, what I mean is vehicle wiring is multi strand finer wire than household wiring, thereby allowing it to bend and move without breaking, whereas household wire only has to stay in one position and so is thicker wire with less strands.

 

[mancalledhorse]

I still think if you look hard, the end of the original wire that broke off will be dangling down there somewhere nearby.

Hi Mike,
I will look again today to see if I can find it. What I'm now thinking is, could it be one of the wires that go to the waxstat??
I will take some pics and attach them. There is a couple of wires that dont have any voltage on them so I'm wondering could it be these wires, maybe they originally had a 12V supply on them? Will try to trace where they are coming from.
Thanks,
Kind regards,
Karl

 

[Communicator]

Hi,
Thank you for your continued help! I've been looking and testing 12v wires but can't seem to find one that shuts the engine off when ignition turned off.
I've got the ignition open in the cab and was wondering, if I could test and find the correct wire that way and if so, then possibly run a permanent wire through to the engine?
Could the wire have been connected to the starter relay switch?
May I ask what these 3 way and 4 way switches would look like, the ones you have mentioned above?
Tried to attach a vid of engine I made earlier but couldn't send as file to large!!
Thank you,

Kind regards,
Karl

Not switches, multiway connectors connecting to the ignition switch. Pin 2 on the 3 way connector is an appropriate point, but as @bugsymike has said there should be a loose wire somewhere in the engine bay.

Having examined the diagrams in the German x230 manual from the Downloads button, Pin 2 is connected to fuse 2, via an orange wire, if that helps. As I have commented elswhere I have not found any specific engine wiring details.

 

[mancalledhorse]

Not switches, multiway connectors connecting to the ignition switch. Pin 2 on the 3 way connector is an appropriate point, but as @bugsymike has said there should be a loose wire somewhere in the engine bay.

Having examined the diagrams in the German x230 manual from the Downloads button, Pin 2 is connected to fuse 2, via an orange wire, if that helps. As I have commented elswhere I have not found any specific engine wiring details.

Hi everyone,

Thanks for replies!

Regarding the loose wire do you think it could be the orange wire in pic1, as it has a crimped circular connector and the blue one fits on a bayonet pin from that waxstat below in pic 1,, maybe only the blue one should be connected to it and the orange one to the starter solenoid valve, as the orange one has a circular connector crimped on the wire, that would fit on top of the starter solenoid.

Both wires are connected to that waxstat in pic 2, but because this has been going on for a long time maybe only one wire was meant to be connected to the waxstat in pic 2. I could have mixed them up?? Only problem is, both these wires, ( orange and blue) dont have any voltage on them??
In pic's 3,4,5,6 and 7, I'm following the cable back the opposite way!

In pic 7 there is a connector to the right with a blue heat shrink wire going up, this wire connects to the bottom of the fuel filter, not sure why there is a wire connected to the bottom of the fuel filter?
I will keep looking for a 12v wire that when I connect to it with my test wire it will start engine and stop engine when I turn ignition off. I have been looking and testing different 12v wires in connectors but no such luck as yet, will take some pics of connectors tomorrow and attach, if ok.

Thanks everyone,
Kind regards,
Karl

 

[bugsymike]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for replies!

Regarding the loose wire do you think it could be the orange wire in pic1, as it has a crimped circular connector and the blue one fits on a bayonet pin from that waxstat below in pic 1,, maybe only the blue one should be connected to it and the orange one to the starter solenoid valve, as the orange one has a circular connector crimped on the wire, that would fit on top of the starter solenoid.

Both wires are connected to that waxstat in pic 2, but because this has been going on for a long time maybe only one wire was meant to be connected to the waxstat in pic 2. I could have mixed them up?? Only problem is, both these wires, ( orange and blue) dont have any voltage on them??
In pic's 3,4,5,6 and 7, I'm following the cable back the opposite way!

In pic 7 there is a connector to the right with a blue heat shrink wire going up, this wire connects to the bottom of the fuel filter, not sure why there is a wire connected to the bottom of the fuel filter?
I will keep looking for a 12v wire that when I connect to it with my test wire it will start engine and stop engine when I turn ignition off. I have been looking and testing different 12v wires in connectors but no such luck as yet, will take some pics of connectors tomorrow and attach, if ok.

Thanks everyone,
Kind regards,
Karl

When you look at the stop/start solenoid on the injector pump, what is the fitting? Often it is a nut so a round connector can drop over and be secured by the nut, if you inspect this does it give any clue? I have seen where that wire has broken off and from looking at the remains it gives you a clue/suggestion of what the other end of the wire you are looking for might look like.
This is assuming you or someone else didn't remove it in the past when checking for a fault.
Generally any loose wire that you suspect may be the correct one, would if aligned with the solenoid, if correct would just seem to want to line up, whereas the wrong one would either be to short and need dragging into place or obviously too long.
So it is just a bit of detective work in some cases.
Regarding power/12volts at that wire, if it has been wrongly fitted before then it is quite possible it has blown a fuse so that would account for no power and need checking at fuse boxes.
Regarding wire at bottom of fuel filter, there is often a sensor to detect water in the fuel filter which when activated puts a light on the dashboard.

 

[Communicator]

I have looked at the photos, perhaps some more than others.

Please check fuses, as suggested by @bugsymike

The orange and blue wires appear to be pushed into a two way socket? Yes/No?

If yes then the original connections to the pump, with mating half connector are missing.

I can see no reason for two wires on the waxstat, which will probably use earth return via the pump body.

The orange wire is significant, as I have seen that colour wire shown on a diagram, as connected to the relevant terminal of the ignition switch.

So inline with your suggestion remove the orange wire from the waxstat, and then test the wire for 12V with ignition on, and also with switch in starting position. There must be no 12V when ignition switch is off.

If all OK connect orange wire to stop solenoid, then test starting and stopping of engine.

Given positive results, the supply to the waxstat should be checked.

If as seems to be the case, the orange and blue wires are just pushed into the half AMP Superseal Connector, then this connection must be improved. If the connection should separate the vehicle will lose power. Not something that you want. At the very least securely tape over the connection. Amp Superseal Connectors for various wire sizes should be available from Ebay, or elsewhere.

 

[mancalledhorse]

When you look at the stop/start solenoid on the injector pump, what is the fitting? Often it is a nut so a round connector can drop over and be secured by the nut, if you inspect this does it give any clue? I have seen where that wire has broken off and from looking at the remains it gives you a clue/suggestion of what the other end of the wire you are looking for might look like.
This is assuming you or someone else didn't remove it in the past when checking for a fault.
Generally any loose wire that you suspect may be the correct one, would if aligned with the solenoid, if correct would just seem to want to line up, whereas the wrong one would either be to short and need dragging into place or obviously too long.
So it is just a bit of detective work in some cases.
Regarding power/12volts at that wire, if it has been wrongly fitted before then it is quite possible it has blown a fuse so that would account for no power and need checking at fuse boxes.
Regarding wire at bottom of fuel filter, there is often a sensor to detect water in the fuel filter which when activated puts a light on the dashboard.

Hi Mike,

Sorry did continue fault finding yesterday ,then got rained off!! Today was shopping with mother so not had thee time to continue but tomorrow I'll make a fresh start.
In your message Mike you saw where the loose wire had broken from, was it in pic 2 at the bottom of pic? There is a tie rap in pic 2 but you cant see it is a tie rap in the pic, as its not a very good pic.

I contacted someone on ebay selling an old Hymer camper van, asked him about where the wire goes from the solenoid. He suggested that I contact Face book technical, I wasn't aware they have a technical side? have looked but cant see it.


Will check for the 12v again tomorrow, Thanks Mike!

Kind regards,
Karl

 

[bugsymike]

Hi Mike,

Sorry did continue fault finding yesterday ,then got rained off!! Today was shopping with mother so not had thee time to continue but tomorrow I'll make a fresh start.
In your message Mike you saw where the loose wire had broken from, was it in pic 2 at the bottom of pic? There is a tie rap in pic 2 but you cant see it is a tie rap in the pic, as its not a very good pic.

I contacted someone on ebay selling an old Hymer camper van, asked him about where the wire goes from the solenoid. He suggested that I contact Face book technical, I wasn't aware they have a technical side? have looked but cant see it.


Will check for the 12v again tomorrow, Thanks Mike!

Kind regards,
Karl

Weather has been pretty poor here also.
I would be guessing to be honest just looking at the photos, my instinct would be for the orange wire if that is the one that has a round connector and assuming there is a matching connection on the start/stop solenoid and not a spade/lucar type connector.
The reason I say that is the majority of ones I have worked on had a round eye connector held on by a nut onto the thread of the solenoid. Generally if a lucar or spade connector it is someones aftermarket repair.
However either way I would test it with a multimeter to see if power is correct .
Did you check for any blown fuses as even if that loose wire was correct it could easily have shorted against the engine metal and blown a fuse.
I don't use Facebook, but to me it sounds like the guy was taking the pi**

 

[jackwhoo]

Face book technical........perhaps he was suggesting he felt you were wasting his time?

Bugsy- I think one of the ops pictures shows stop solenoid connector stud with neither wire nor retaining nut- post #14

 

[bugsymike]

Face book technical........perhaps he was suggesting he felt you were wasting his time?

Bugsy- I think one of the ops pictures shows stop solenoid connector stud with neither wire nor retaining nut.

Thanks @jackwhoo I couldn't make it out with my eyesight, so it probably had a round connector before the nut came off the solenoid as originally used?