Hi all im new to the forum and desperately need some help from you knowledgeable people!

Ok so i have a 2003 fiat stilo dynamic in the best colour......YELLOW. I love(d) the car up until last week. got home, parked car up with usual routine after the rat run, went to leave for work the next morning and it was cold -3 to be precise, so i fired her up and let her warm whilst i attended to the ice on the windows etc then drove up the road to commence the new days rat run....this is where the fun starts:

Got to the top of my road and it just died, i thought well it is cold and re started her and carried on......next time i stopped it died again....re started and pressed on… about 5 miles into the journey i get the scary beeps and **engine fault** i think oh great and nursed her to work and contemplated what was happening!

The symptoms are more on the tick over side and the fact it wont hold a tick over, it floats between 700-1500 rpm then dies. so after a 12 hour shift i try to get home.....same problems every time i stop it dies, but now when driving the accelerator just stops working by this i mean it acts as if it stalled so i put the clutch in and the engine is still ticking over but the pedal wont rev the engine until you turn it off and re start....5 mins later it happens again......the engine fault light still remains lit on the dash.

So after hours of forum searching and google searching i decided start with the basics and replace plugs and battery....to no avail! Next stop diagnostic test and it came back with lambda 1 erratic. coil 1-2-4 1800 coil 3 1500 so coil 3 was lazy. so i have put 4x champion coils in (as recommended by this site) to go with the new batt and new plugs and new exhaust from cat back. The problem is still there.

The theory I have come up with is cylinder 3 was not burning fuel correctly due to lazy coil, so the lambda is picking up wrong gasses and adjusting everything thus causing the rough running…..but I think im wrong!

I have ordered a pre-cat lambda and that should, with any luck be here Friday. I haven’t yet played with the D4 connector or cleaned the throttle body connectors but i have cleaned the throttle body butterfly valve (as recommended by this site) and still it wont hold a tick over. if i can recall from memory the car was throwing out an injector fault code that i think was P0101 and a P0103 or something like that unfortunately i dont have the diag sheet to hand as im at work.

Sorry for the long post but i thought i would give as much history as possible to aid your expertise and i would greatly appreciate any advice given. The car had a full service 3 months ago and the mileage is 64k with full service history etc and it has never wanted for a part in its life. i have spent over £500 this month trying to sort her out and funds are now extreeeeeemly low, my girls cant have a great xmas now because of this

kind regards,
Mike.
At his wits end. May torch her and claim on the insurance!!!!!! :slayer:

P.S im competent with engines, but i mainly build bikes and bike engines. Hence the name lol

Knowing what engine it is helps with the diagnosis as they are very different

P0101 and P0103 are MAF sensor but you need to be sure what they actually were so buy a fault code reader as an early Xmas present is my advice as it will save you many times its purchase price and wasted money in guessing and replacing everything in sight. Contact http://www.talktomycar.co.uk if you're not sure, there's plenty on Ebay but again, need to know your engine.

To hold a good tickover everything has to be just right and with so many possibilities fault codes are really going to help

BUT don't just change things because there's a fault code. That's the area to investigate not to change everything in the line related to it

Thanks for your swift helpfull reply, Its a 1.6 dynamic think its got aircon....but it doesnt work so i think thats a re-gas jobby.

The only faults we could find on the diagnostics was the erratic lambda and coil 3 was slightly down on power. I will look into the fault code reader, i have found many threads with regards to it! The AA bloke said there was an injector fault and cleared it off and after a 5 min run it came back.

OK yours is full EOBD so it will be easy to get a fault code reader.

Air con U/S won't matter but the air con differential pressure switch is on the same circuit as the throttle body so it might be worth pulling the plug on that just to get it out the way.Does the tickover rise when you select air con (even though it's not working)

Coils tend to work or not and you won't lose your tickover even with a coil completely gone. Use your bike experience. Is it misfiring under load? No? Forget coils

If you have a simple multimeter then you can check the lambda yourself. You've changed it now but it's worth getting to know how to check it so you can check wiring to and from it and the lambda heater circuit

Really need the current stored fault codes

In the meantime you could carefully inspect and clean the ECU connector pins with electrical contact cleaner (£5) and the throttle body connector too as it sounds ECU /throttle body related.

Buy some acupuncture needles on Ebay (£5) so you can back probe connectors then you could check out the lambda readings with a mutimeter (£10)

You could put in some injector cleaner (£5)

When it's doing it's struggling tickover try the "wiggle test" to the ECU and throttle body connectors

All of these would cost next to nothing and you'll have the tools to dagnose and sort problems for the future.

Yeah i have a multimeter. Tick over is not effected by the aircon button (button with an ice flake on it) as i have seen other stilo's with a climate control screen, mine doesnt have this. i have the skyroof aswell.

ok so when i get home i will get the fault codes it had before and in the mean time i will buy a code reader, do you have any recommendations?

Cheers, Mike

Try some of the above- partcularly the wiggle test

Brilliant, thank you for your advice deckchair it is much appreciated. i will try all of the above tonight and tomorrow and i will report back with my findings and hopefully a smiley face hahaha

Cheers, Mike

Ok so the fault codes the aa found are p0353 and p0101 and the diag results are as follows:
barometric fault cleared down ok
re-set engine ecu due to recorded coil offline fault
coil 3 low charge time: 1550 usec
coils 1/2/4: 1832 usec
lambda 1 irratic 87-786mv
lambda 2 stable @ 864mv
exhaust blow requires attention ( has now been replaced from cat back)

so what do you think from that? Still waiting for the lambda to be delivered and still hoping it will sort her out!

Cheers, Mike

P0353 No. 3 coil circuit
P0101 MAF sensor performance - you don't have a MAF sensor so we can assume it means MAP sensor
I would study a trace of its output before condemning it


This is a good MAP trace on the top chart showing the effects of a sudden wide open throttle. Wild or inconsistent figures too many times fire off a P0101


But you've changed all your coils since this haven't you? What are your most up to date recorded fault codes?

Re your No 1 lambda then just two figures aren't enough to make a decision - your EOBD spotted a problem and it hardly ever lies so there would be a problem there but whether it needed replacement is a different story. An ignition coil causing a misfire is enough to put the lambda readings out of normal range so is a leaking exhaust

ideally you want to see an output trace like this then you can see what's happening although you can do this with a multimeter too. Here's some good lambdas at idle- pre cat swinging from around 0.15v to .85v around every second- post cat producing a steady trace but sampling again every second

But replacing it as you've already bought another one won't do any harm.

Note It's best to use a proper lambda sensor socket with a slot for the wires up the side to install the new one

What I would do is disconnect the MAP sensor, start it up, let it bitch about MAP sensor, (probably get a P0105) that's ok. Turn engine off. Re attach the MAP sensor. Clear the fault codes. Then take it for a run and see what it thinks of that. Effectively you have told it you have renewed the MAP sensor, cleared the old stored engine data and told it to try it again

Brilliant thanks for that mate. Well fiat...fix it again tomorrow....she's living up to that! so todays events are:

Lambda sensor has been replaced and they are both now stable
MPG is still 16.2mpg!!!!!
The car today threw up a maf and map sensor error but unforunatly the tester didnt give me the codes and deleted them but that was the error the car said. they were deleted and no engine fault has come back just yet but i only drove back about 5 miles, the tickover is still diesel like so much so it makes me feel a little ill at tickover (like sea sick?)

things that have been replaced are:
exhaust from cat back
battery
plugs
4 coil packs (champion)
lambda
and i have removed throttle body and fully cleaned it and the butter fly valve. i have not played with the D4 yet but i have cleaned the throttle body contacts when i removed it.

you said the car doesnt have a MAF sensor so will this mean its the MAP? how much is this likley to cost and if i disconnect will it delete after the three full starts? as i dont have access to the code reader just yet. neebie question.....where can i locate it?

thanks for your help so far gentlemen it is much appreciated

cheers, mike

Yes you don't have a MAF but you do have a MAP sensor, they do the same job, it's just yours senses pressure rather than actual air flow and the ECU works it out from there.

Did you clear the stored engine data (clear fault codes selection will do it) when you replaced the lambda?

Now your car will run quite happily without a MAP sensor so disconnect it and try it without. It's largely there for better economy and as your economy is atrocious at 16mpg (ha!) then there's something badly up there which is extremely likely to MAP sensor circuit related as you've already replaced the lambda. Yes when you clear the codes and reconnect the MAP sensor it will detect it and not bitch at all if it's happy with it

Any chance you can post up a Utube video perhaps of the sick thing ticking over?
What plug gap and plugs have you got in there?
Air filter ok?
No exhaust leaks between engine and cat?
Any other work done on the engine before this started?
Don't buy anything else without conferring first!
MAP is around £50 from shop4parts if you need one

ok cool, i'll sort a vid tomorrow, the faults were cleared off when lambda was replaced but i have just got back from a 10 mile drive and fault light is back on and mpg is horribly low and expensive...but then what isnt hahaha (laughed with tears)

not sure on plug gap, just took em out of the box and put them in and there NGK's standard, was going to opt for iradium but funds did not permit.
i also thought about the air filter and will check that tomorrow am. there are no leaks around or coming from the manicat.

The engine is completly standard and so is the exhaust, none of this chav stuff, the only work done was a full service a little while ago. im quite happy not to spend any more money on parts hehehe so i will confur with you gurus first! but a new map is on the cards tbh. as ill save it in the mpg....if thats the part at fault

The NGK 5EZ plugs come shipped with a much too big gap for the Stilo, double check these are at 0.9mm and my advice is stick with those and don't bother with iridium as they seem to affect the spark timing. It runs real fine on standard NGKs

Try your car without the MAP as i suggested but use contact cleaner on the contacts before you reconnect it again as that may be causing a bad contact problem

It's not really obvious but the airconditioning linear pressure switch (at the front ,low down, driver's side) is on the same reference voltage circuit as the MAP sensor and throttle valve so if you have a problem down there- like damage- then you could disconnect the LPS just to isolate it from the system

Your absolutely dire mpg could well be the MAP sensor but i wouldn't expect that to affect the tickover and wouldn't make it sound like a diesel. But a too wide plug gap will make it lumpy at tickover

ok brilliant cheers deckchair i will check/do all of the above asap...just need to find my feeler guages! lol. today i did a few vids to try and show how she is, the engine bay vid doesnt really show how much the engine is "moving" due to the lumpy tickover! the mpg today is a 18! woohoo creeping back up then. the camera shake is not me i dont have parkingsons lol its rested on the steering wheel to get an idea of just how rough the tickover is, feels like the timing is out or something :-?...so here are the vids!
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[ame="http://s202.photobucket.com/albums/aa275/blandit/?action=view&current=SNV33178.flv"]SNV33178.flv video by blandit - Photobucket[/ame]

Good stuff. I recommend Cavonia for the cough!

Ok can see a lot of the videos. Although your tickover is lumpy the car is holding the tickover very well at around 750rpm so the throttle body valve seems to be working and making the fine adjustments necessary. It starts and also picks up well with no misfire or hesitation although that's with no load

So check your basic ignition plug gaps, make sure none are loose (don't overtighten though)
Check the coil connectors are on properly
reset your trip or look at the inst consumption when on the road rather than average over time as it will take a long time to bring up that average consumption

MAP
clean the MAP connector contacts. Disconnect the MAP sensor and take it for a run looking at the inst consumption and then av consumption. See if it's loads better, see if tickover is affected. Your 1.6 engine will run absolutely fine without a MAP sensor but not very economically
The inlet air temp sensor is also in your MAP and either of these could be causing your problems.If the IAT is duff then it goes on the engine temp output. It would be nice to have a read out of your IAT but I don't know whether you have equip to do that



It looks like a car that someone has put the wrong plugs in (Just checking)
I also saw a Stilo that looked just like that -misfire at tickover and drinking fuel and that was a broken IAT in the MAP sensor

Here it is. Top chart shows tickover and MAP all over the place
Bottom chart is difficult to see because both traces are at max. IAT thinks inlet temp is 80 degrees C (Ha!) and long term fuel trim is maxed out so it's just drinking fuel

Here's the same car with a new MAP (and IAT) sensor

Top trace shows rock steady tickover in between throttle blips
IAT is now a more sensible 40C



Fix your STOP lamp

hahaha unfortunatly im a smoker! so thats the cough explained hehehe ok so i took the plugs out last night and checked the plug gaps and made them 9mm but.............there Bosch not NGK my bad!!!!!

ok so im going to disconnect the map sensor and se what she thinks of that....where can i find it as its not obvious to me hehhehe.

last night i also put injector cleaner in the fuel just to see if that has any effects....shouldnt imagion it will hurt her. i will report back with the results. im working the nexy 4 nights from tomorrow (yes im working Christmas ) but its double time that i need to get some of my hard earned back! hahahaha.

thanks so much for your help and advice so far as she is slowly getting better and she drives alot better now these parts has been changed! its just the tickover tht needs sorting.

They're not Bosch super 4s are they? Renowned for causing misfires and bad engine running on the 1.6 engiine. If so change them and put the standard NGK in [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pt no BKR5EZ[/FONT] on 0.9mm gap


MAP is here. Real easy on a 1.6. Watch you don't break the securing clip. Tie wrap it up if you do

Wicked ok so i will change the plugs asap and hope that cures it, if not the map is being disconected and replaced with a shiny new one! i will let you know the outcome!

thanks again

oh and the brake light has been done today :slayer: the cought still remains!

Sounds promising

sorry for delayed reply. life has thrown a lot of poo at the fan and its been sprayed all over me....bad times .

ok so my baby has a full set of new NGK's perfprmance is back to normal although it did do the whole "playing dead whilst driving" i.e engine feels as if it stalled but its ticking over and accelerator doesnt work.

The tickover is still rough so i will be putting an order in for a new MAP as soon as we get this bloody christmas thing out of the way!

very trying times at the moe, chin up and all that!

Thanks again, Mike