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Technical Clutch Master Cylinder Replacement

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Technical Clutch Master Cylinder Replacement

SB1500

SB1500

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Just ordered this on eBay:

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/25231223006...vr_id=1080161941222&_mwBanner=1&ul_noapp=true


Next weekend will possibly be fitting it, any tips?

Going to get on eLearn during the week and try get the instructions but some of you are bound to have done this before and can tell me what to expect :)

Clutch is creaking, and it's on drivers side.

Apparently this could solve my gear box crunch noise into reverse and difficult selection (yay!)
 
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Get someone to press the clutch pedal while you listen to the clutch housing (engine off).

If the creak is from the clutch housing you'll be needing a new clutch. Failure to open the clutch causes crunchy gears is a sign its worn out.
 
Last edited:
SB1500 said:
Just ordered this on eBay:

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/25231223006...vr_id=1080161941222&_mwBanner=1&ul_noapp=true


Next weekend will possibly be fitting it, any tips?

Going to get on eLearn during the week and try get the instructions but some of you are bound to have done this before and can tell me what to expect :)

Clutch is creaking, and it's on drivers side.

Apparently this could solve my gear box crunch noise into reverse and difficult selection (yay!)
Click to expand...

Sometimes clutch creaking can be down to dry fork bushes.

Your crunching and difficult selection could be either down to the master cylinder or the actual clutch itself.

Fitting isn't too difficult, just make sure all the pipe work is routed and clipped in properly and ensure its all bled correctly
 
This post contains affiliate links which may earn a commission at no additional cost to you.
Master cylinder problems usually appear as difficulty bleeding air out of the system. Worn seals can seem adequate when under internal pressure but air gets past the seals when you try to bleed the system. Its a sign the seals or master cylinder or both are worn.

If the system bleeds ok its likely the master cylinder is fine.

If the system has been bled and you still have crunchy gears the clutch itself has to be suspected.

A clutch that is not totally smooth acting is a sign the spring plate is moving beyond its normal range. Again the clutch is shot.

New clutch costs on a Panda are around £150 fitted so really not a big deal.
 
SB1500 said:
Just ordered this on eBay:

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/25231223006...vr_id=1080161941222&_mwBanner=1&ul_noapp=true


Next weekend will possibly be fitting it, any tips?

Going to get on eLearn during the week and try get the instructions but some of you are bound to have done this before and can tell me what to expect :)

Clutch is creaking, and it's on drivers side.

Apparently this could solve my gear box crunch noise into reverse and difficult selection (yay!)
Click to expand...

Under the dash, prise the rod off the pedal. Should pop off easily.
Under bonnet, carefully prise out the clip for the output pipe, and tug the pipe out gently. (Unless you wish to change the pipe, in which case you'll need to remove battery tray, disconnecting all the stuff attached to it, and disconnect the pipe at the gearbox end. Then remove form its clips, etc.)
Undo the two nuts holding the cylinder to the bulkhead, and the clip holding the reservoir. Try not to drop your nuts.
Wriggle the cylinder off its studs and retire to the garage/shed/kitchen where swapping over the reservoir is easier.
In good 'Haynes' tradition, refitting is the reversal of removal.
You'll probably have to remove the battery tray anyway to bleed it.
 
This post contains affiliate links which may earn a commission at no additional cost to you.
Thanks to everyone whose replied.

So, I'm suspecting now that if this job doesn't fix everything, then it's literally coming down to the fact that it's the clutch itself.

£150 clutch fitted? I assume you folk are all in England, I'm in N. Ireland where I'd expect the price to be the same if not slightly cheaper and that's much better than I imagined.

Is this the cost of a clutch and fitting by an independent mechanic?

I'm not sure how clutches go, but is there genuine and non genuine kits? And what's your advice on that, should the clutch be the next unfortunate expensive repair I need to make!
 
SB1500 said:
Thanks to everyone whose replied.

So, I'm suspecting now that if this job doesn't fix everything, then it's literally coming down to the fact that it's the clutch itself.

£150 clutch fitted? I assume you folk are all in England, I'm in N. Ireland where I'd expect the price to be the same if not slightly cheaper and that's much better than I imagined.

Is this the cost of a clutch and fitting by an independent mechanic?

I'm not sure how clutches go, but is there genuine and non genuine kits? And what's your advice on that, should the clutch be the next unfortunate expensive repair I need to make!
Click to expand...

Genuine clutches are made by Valeo, they are okay, but the release bearings are fairly cheap and don't last particularly long.

Avoid anything that seems like a good deal.

You want clutches from known brands such as LUK and Sachs etc.

I purchased a Sachs clutch kit last year and the release bearing looks much superior to the original Valeo one.
 
My 2001 Punto Mk 2 had a fully feeling clutch action best described as "boingy".

A few weeks into my ownership it began to creak and not gear selection got worse. I tend the rev match so lived with it but slow traffic was not good.

I fitted a new slave cylinder. the creak got worse. A new clutch solved the crummy gear shift and the funny pedal action. I probably didn't need the new hydraulic parts.

The car had basically the same clutch as the Panda or any other 1.2 Fiat.
 
SB1500 said:
My clutch is horribly difficult to push to the ground, and the creaking has dulled down into a tighter noise.. :-(
Click to expand...

Your clutch is fekked (technical term). The master cylinder is nice to have but a new clutch and slave are needed. Cost about £150 fitted.

Also get the gearbox input shaft bearings replaced. They are not costly and easy enough to replace (an hour's labour costs). The old bearings will leak onto your new clutch long before the clutch wears out. Any free play in the shaft = worn bearings.
 
Last edited:
DaveMcT said:
Your clutch is fekked (technical term). The master cylinder is nice to have but a new clutch and slave are needed. Cost about £150 fitted.
Click to expand...


How do you know?

Is it because I've complained of a crunch into reverse and difficulty selecting some gears?

Is £150 a price of a typical mechanic including parts and are these genuine? Should I need to get this fixed.


No doubt people will tell me to ignore it until it starts slipping :-S
 
A clutch that is well worn will be stiffer to operate than a new one. That is where the diagnosis is coming from above.

However, your earlier description of the problem, with the squeak inside the cabin is identical to the problem I had with mine, due to wear in the master cylinder. That caused the pedal to stick down a couple of times on one journey. Replacement of the master cylinder has fixed this. I now have a easy to use clutch, free from noises.

If the noises you described had been coming from the gearbox end, rather than inside the car, then it would be more likely to need a new clutch. Right now, go with the master cylinder, not a big job, and see what that does.
 
portland_bill said:
A clutch that is well worn will be stiffer to operate than a new one. That is where the diagnosis is coming from above.

However, your earlier description of the problem, with the squeak inside the cabin is identical to the problem I had with mine, due to wear in the master cylinder. That caused the pedal to stick down a couple of times on one journey. Replacement of the master cylinder has fixed this. I now have a easy to use clutch, free from noises.

If the noises you described had been coming from the gearbox end, rather than inside the car, then it would be more likely to need a new clutch. Right now, go with the master cylinder, not a big job, and see what that does.
Click to expand...


We listened to it and it's definitely the squeak inside the cabin at the pedal, which originates from the engine fire wall right where the clutch pedal assumably goes 'through it' out of the cabin as it's the driver side and area.

Excited to give this a go and improve gear shifting!
 
SB1500 said:
How do you know?
Click to expand...

Because you said
My clutch is horribly difficult to push to the ground, and the creaking has dulled down into a tighter noise.. :-(

This is a failing clutch pressure plate moving too far because the friction plate is worn out.

SB1500 said:
Is £150 a price of a typical mechanic including parts and are these genuine? Should I need to get this fixed.
Click to expand...

Seriously why don't you do some research for yourself. The clutch parts are well under £100. Fitted at my garage for £150 but other might be £200. All I had to do was ask them.

SB1500 said:
No doubt people will tell me to ignore it until it starts slipping :-S
Click to expand...

You could do that but more likely the clutch will fail to disengage before then. Broken pressure plate springs can grind into the gearbox casing scrapping the gearbox. Friction plate rivets can chew into the flywheel scrapping that.

Dont forget to get the gearbox input bearings replaced. Its not strictly a clutch repair job but these bearings wont last for 2 clutches. When they fail oil will ruin the new clutch so you end up doing it anyway along with a new clutch.
 
DaveMcT said:
Because you said
My clutch is horribly difficult to push to the ground, and the creaking has dulled down into a tighter noise.. :-(

This is a failing clutch pressure plate moving too far because the friction plate is worn out.



Seriously why don't you do some research for yourself. The clutch parts are well under £100. Fitted at my garage for £150 but other might be £200. All I had to do was ask them.



You could do that but more likely the clutch will fail to disengage before then. Broken pressure plate springs can grind into the gearbox casing scrapping the gearbox. Friction plate rivets can chew into the flywheel scrapping that.

Dont forget to get the gearbox input bearings replaced. Its not strictly a clutch repair job but these bearings wont last for 2 clutches. When they fail oil will ruin the new clutch so you end up doing it anyway along with a new clutch.
Click to expand...



If this master cylinder doesn't fix the problem, then looks like I know the next step to take. Thanks for your help.

Will research some parts, someone said Lux or other brands can be better than Fiat/Genuine?

Does the input bearing cost much in terms of part, then labour?

Looks like I'd be hiring a mechanic for this one.. looked on eLearn how to replace a clutch.. :cry: haha

The flywheel has an oil leak, the seal was about £8.. would a mechanic be able to fit that for me too easily during a clutch replacement? :)
 
The master cylinder will be nice to have but your clutch symptoms are of a worn out clutch.

The gearbox bearings are very low cost no more than £20 the pair. I'm not sure if they are grease packed or oil lubricated. Good mechanics will know of the problem. Its simple enough job even for those who don't like to work on gearboxes.

If the crank bearing oil leak is at the clutch end of the engine, it can and should be replaced when the clutch is done. But the oil might be from the gearbox input bearing seals. Some people would change it as part of any clutch job.

If leaking oil seal is from the cam belt end of the engine wait until you need a new cam belt or until the leak gets bad enough to have to be done.
 
Last edited:
DaveMcT said:
The master cylinder will be nice to have but your clutch symptoms are of a worn out clutch.

The gearbox bearings are very low cost no more than £20 the pair. I'm not sure if they are grease packed or oil lubricated. Good mechanics will know of the problem. Its simple enough job even for those who don't like to work on gearboxes.

If the crank bearing oil leak is at the clutch end of the engine, it can and should be replaced when the clutch is done. But the oil might be from the gearbox input bearing seals. Some people would change it as part of any clutch job.

If leaking oil seal is from the cam belt end of the engine wait until you need a new cam belt or until the leak gets bad enough to have to be done.
Click to expand...


I was looking at this kit, should the job need done,

http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/F...f9bdf4f9523fc6a6cfef81cc1664493450f8e5&000069

Says it comes with with the cover plate and bearing, is this what you were talking about? :)

And is AP a good brand? Picture says 'made by Sachs' but the picture might be a stock photo for another kit.

I just spent £30 getting new gearbox oil from S4P, a fortune.. is this going to have been a waste if a mechanic replaces the clutch? :(
 
That kit looks fine.
AP are an old established manufacturer of brakes and clutches, although I thought I'd heard they'd gone pop. Whilst their manufacturing may have ceased, their aftermarket division looks like it is still going, so no worries there. The AP factory when it was going was quite impressive.
As a manufacturer, they would not make everything for all applications, buying in to fill range gaps, from other reputable suppliers. They would not use dodgy stuff, so they're a name to trust.
Sachs are also an old established OE manufacturer, you may have heard of Boge shock absorbers, another of their brands. So again, no worries there, good quality. They will not risk their name on poor stuff.

You also mentioned LUK. Another OE manufacturer who can be trusted.

With a clutch, always buy a good brand name. They all buy from each other to make a complete range, but they don't risk poor quality. A cheap clutch will often bite back, requiring the job to be done again.

A dilemma now, Euro are doing 30% off this weekend, but you may not need it. Sorry, can't help with that decision.

If you fit a new clutch, treat it with respect during fitting. Don't drop it, as they can be damaged and then not perform properly.
Don't allow the weight of the gearbox to hang on the centreplate when fitting, always support the box until some bolts are in.

Sadly, if the box has to come out, the oil will escape. You could try catching it, but you'll need a clean container, and be ready to filter it well before re-using it.
 
Last edited:
SB1500 said:
I was looking at this kit, should the job need done,

http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/F...f9bdf4f9523fc6a6cfef81cc1664493450f8e5&000069

Says it comes with with the cover plate and bearing, is this what you were talking about? :)

I just spent £30 getting new gearbox oil from S4P, a fortune.. is this going to have been a waste if a mechanic replaces the clutch? :(
Click to expand...

Simply changing the clutch wont affect the gear oil. But its highly likely the input bearings will need to be done. The clutch kit is release bearing, pressure plate (the one with radial finger springs) and the friction plate (the one with four coil springs).

The gearbox bearings will be separate buy. The information you need is here.
https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-ii/158346-input-shaft-bearing-renewal.html

I don't mean to be rude, but to be honest clutch change and gearbox jobs are not suitable for a first time mechanic. If you ask, maybe the garage will let you watch and help with the jobs. Once you know the details it will be easy next time.

The bearings you need are shown in the thread, but check the Eper spares lists. IIRC they are the same as motorbike wheel bearings so pretty tough. My bike gearbox (by Gertrag) uses fully sealed grease lubricated bearings. They'll always have enough lube however the box has been angled.

Regarding the hardly used gear oil. Drain it into a CLEAN tray through some workshop cleaning wipe paper. Any dirt will be trapped and the oil can go back into the gearbox.
 
Last edited:
portland_bill said:
That kit looks fine.
AP are an old established manufacturer of brakes and clutches, although I thought I'd heard they'd gone pop. Whilst their manufacturing may have ceased, their aftermarket division looks like it is still going, so no worries there. The AP factory when it was going was quite impressive.
As a manufacturer, they would not make everything for all applications, buying in to fill range gaps, from other reputable suppliers. They would not use dodgy stuff, so they're a name to trust.
Sachs are also an old established OE manufacturer, you may have heard of Boge shock absorbers, another of their brands. So again, no worries there, good quality. They will not risk their name on poor stuff.

You also mentioned LUK. Another OE manufacturer who can be trusted.

With a clutch, always buy a good brand name. They all buy from each other to make a complete range, but they don't risk poor quality. A cheap clutch will often bite back, requiring the job to be done again.

A dilemma now, Euro are doing 30% off this weekend, but you may not need it. Sorry, can't help with that decision.

If you fit a new clutch, treat it with respect during fitting. Don't drop it, as they can be damaged and then not perform properly.
Don't allow the weight of the gearbox to hang on the centreplate when fitting, always support the box until some bolts are in.

Sadly, if the box has to come out, the oil will escape. You could try catching it, but you'll need a clean container, and be ready to filter it well before re-using it.
Click to expand...


Think I'll go for the AP, the LuK one isn't in stock :-(

Will try get the mechanic to drain the good fluid I have, if this sounds like a reasonable thing if I explain how its hard to get and new?

Don't think I'll be fitting this myself, but will ask my uncle. Probably unlikely though.



DaveMcT said:
Simply changing the clutch wont affect the gear oil. But its highly likely the input bearings will need to be done. The clutch kit is release bearing, pressure plate (the one with radial finger springs) and the friction plate (the one with four coil springs).

The gearbox bearings will be separate buy. The information you need is here.
https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-ii/158346-input-shaft-bearing-renewal.html

I don't mean to be rude, but to be honest clutch change and gearbox jobs are not suitable for a first time mechanic. If you ask, maybe the garage will let you watch and help with the jobs. Once you know the details it will be easy next time.

The bearings you need are shown in the thread, but check the Eper spares lists. IIRC they are the same as motorbike wheel bearings so pretty tough. My bike gearbox (by Gertrag) uses fully sealed grease lubricated bearings. They'll always have enough lube however the box has been angled.

Regarding the hardly used gear oil. Drain it into a CLEAN tray through some workshop cleaning wipe paper. Any dirt will be trapped and the oil can go back into the gearbox.
Click to expand...


Okay, I'll take a read through that, thanks.

That's not rude at all, I'm preparing myself to hand over money to a mechanic at the minute, one my mum used she reckons he wouldn't mind me watching / learning about it so I'll perhaps buy the kit and ask him :)

Thanks for the tip of getting the gearbox oil in, hopefully the mechanic will mention this and if not I'll say about it since I've spent a good bit on it in the past month and don't want to lose it or wait for more to arrive from S4P. I do have half a bottle left so maybe that will help too.

Going to price up a clutch kit now and that bearing. According to my dad, any car, even a new one will need a clutch eventually and since its a friction wearing part I suppose its not too unheard of. Wonder if my clutch is original. . hmm
 
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