Technical The one and only Dualogic failure thread

[crd]

Did you buy this privately or through a dealer?
I assume privately! Otherwise take it straight back to the dealer, as this is a relatively expensive fix for an 7 year old 500!

How many miles has this car done?

Thank you p6baseunit for your comprehensive reply. To answer your questions, the car is now at 188 000 km, 7 years old with the last 30000 km driven by me. I am aware this must be some kind of performance for an Italian car, but still unsatisfied when I compare it with a German one.

Anyway I understand the most common causes for my issue are:

1) the clutch being worned out
or/and
2) the actuator (if this will be the case, I guess sending it from Romania to UK is not feasible due to postage costs and time, so if I will have to change it I would probably source the cheappest price for a new and Fiat original unit)

I was looking for skematics of the dualogic-gearbox to figure out if I can check myself some features in order to figure out what is the cause for my problem (other then buying this particular car).

How can I check/see the oil level in the actuator?
Has anyone experience any lube oil loss from the Fiat manual gearbox? Is this possible other then breaking the gearbox casing?

To check the condition of the clutch do I need to remove completely the gearbox from the engine? Any idea the "damage" (aka cost) of a new clutch for my Fiat? What are the constituent parts of this clutch unit (a skematic, exploded view, photo or drawings..?)?

Bottom line is I will fix the car, most of the work will be carried out at a Fiat garage but before that I prefer to find out exactly my problem and obviously source over internet the Fiat original replacement parts (cause a Fiat dealer is a total ripp off, at least in my city).

Thank you.

 

[p6baseunit]

Thank you p6baseunit for your comprehensive reply. To answer your questions, the car is now at 188 000 km, 7 years old with the last 30000 km driven by me. I am aware this must be some kind of performance for an Italian car, but still unsatisfied when I compare it with a German one.

Anyway I understand the most common causes for my issue are:

1) the clutch being worned out
or/and
2) the actuator (if this will be the case, I guess sending it from Romania to UK is not feasible due to postage costs and time, so if I will have to change it I would probably source the cheappest price for a new and Fiat original unit)

I was looking for skematics of the dualogic-gearbox to figure out if I can check myself some features in order to figure out what is the cause for my problem (other then buying this particular car).

How can I check/see the oil level in the actuator?
Has anyone experience any lube oil loss from the Fiat manual gearbox? Is this possible other then breaking the gearbox casing?

To check the condition of the clutch do I need to remove completely the gearbox from the engine? Any idea the "damage" (aka cost) of a new clutch for my Fiat? What are the constituent parts of this clutch unit (a skematic, exploded view, photo or drawings..?)?

Bottom line is I will fix the car, most of the work will be carried out at a Fiat garage but before that I prefer to find out exactly my problem and obviously source over internet the Fiat original replacement parts (cause a Fiat dealer is a total ripp off, at least in my city).

Thank you.

110000 miles is good going to be fair. You mention this as not being satisfactory compared to German cars. VW has an awful reputation with its DSG auto gearboxes and you won’t expect an auto gearbox on a BMW to do more than 150k miles either and these cars are more expensive than Fiat and a lot more money to fix when they go wrong.

The MultiECUscan software which you can buy and download for a windows laptop will be able to give you more of an idea when connected to the car. http://www.multiecuscan.net/

The level of the hydraulic fluid can be seen with the car up on a hoist, the plastic tank can be seen from the nearside (UK car) wheel arch. You can get to it by removing the battery, tray and shield surrounding the tank.
You need the software mentioned above to depressurise the Dualogic system (or unplug the wires to the pump behind the tank and turn the ignition on without starting the engine and move through the gears to do this). You cannot see the correct level while the system is pressurised.

I have added some pictures to give you an idea of where the level should be. You must only top up with CS Speed oil as shown in the picture

To check the condition of the clutch and pressure plate, the gearbox does need to be removed. At that kind of mileage it is likely to be worn regardless.

I ship whatever I need for my Fiats or my classic car from the UK to here in Spain... I would be surprised if you paid more than £30 in courier fees.

Fixing this at a Fiat Dealer (if that is what you mean) will be the most expensive way of doing this.

 

[p6baseunit]

Has anyone experience any lube oil loss from the Fiat manual gearbox? Is this possible other then breaking the gearbox casing?

To check the condition of the clutch do I need to remove completely the gearbox from the engine? Any idea the "damage" (aka cost) of a new clutch for my Fiat? What are the constituent parts of this clutch unit (a skematic, exploded view, photo or drawings..?)?

Thank you.

The gearbox itself can leak oil out of the drive shaft seals for example, but most leaks should be obvious when you are under the car.... and your problem is with the gearbox control module.

The clutch is a standard type three part unit - bearing, pressure plate and clutch - around a £150

 

[xxmonixx]

hi i have fiat 500 dualogic 2009. i recently having problem when is take ages to change gears or i have to change them manually otherwise is just revs. Sometimes transmission light comes on with the message " check the transmission see handbook" and then is changing gears perfectly. but then i stop on traffic lights and light disappear, then i am back to changing gears but when i change from 1 to 2 or 2 to 3 is slows me down. I just spend 500 quit as didn't pass MOT and i had to change whole break system so really dont have money to spend around 1300 for gearbox. My husband is so fed up and said this is the worst car he ever seen and i need to get rid of it. this was my dream car and i love it, but everytime i am worry what will be wrong next. Please can someone help what is wrong with it? Does not go to neutral as other people having problem with and still changing gears so i have not idea.

thank you

 

[varesecrazy]

hi i have fiat 500 dualogic 2009. i recently having problem when is take ages to change gears or i have to change them manually otherwise is just revs. Sometimes transmission light comes on with the message " check the transmission see handbook" and then is changing gears perfectly. but then i stop on traffic lights and light disappear, then i am back to changing gears but when i change from 1 to 2 or 2 to 3 is slows me down.Please can someone help what is wrong with it? Does not go to neutral as other people having problem with and still changing gears so i have not idea.

thank you

Hi. Sounds like it has not been serviced..

When was the fluid level last checked?

Ideally need to be plugged in and gone through properly.

Oil is cheap..and not a complicated job.

 

[chris3234]

Re: dualogic gear problem

Bit off topic but £500 sounds like a lot just what did you have done could have fluid changed and new discs pads rear brake shoes and drum's fitted for less then that?

 

[xxmonixx]

Is purchasing did not done services last service was done at 50 000 miles and currently is 55000 Miles. I will booked for next week and see

 

[xxmonixx]

Bit off topic but £500 sounds like a lot just what did you have done could have fluid changed and new discs pads rear brake shoes and drum's fitted for less then that?

Yes they did change breake disc and fluids

 

[chris3234]

Re: dualogic gear problem

Yes they did change breake disc and fluids

Any other work done because the discs and pads alone should Costa hell of a lot less then that

 

[varesecrazy]

Is purchasing did not done services last service was done at 50 000 miles and currently is 55000 Miles. I will booked for next week and see

The car has not done excessive mileage.

You need a competent garage to topup the fluid in the gearchange reservoir.

Then use the electronic software to purge the fluid.

Then read and clear the Gearbox fault codes

 

[jrkitching]

Re: dualogic gear problem

hi

Hi and welcome to the forum. :wave::wave::wave:

Sorry it's in such sad circumstances.

Sadly this issue with dualogic 500's is so common we've a thread specifically dedicated to it (this one).

I've copied your posts across.

You'll get some idea of just how common this issue is when I tell you that you're joining it on page 30. I've considered stickying the thread but there's really no need as it rarely moves off the first page now. At least skim through it before reading further.

The first thing to do now is to put the car on diagnostics, read the fault codes, then check and if necessary top up the fluids. This may restore normal functionality for a short while but many folks have found out the hard way that this is usually just putting off the inevitable £1000+ repair. Consequently many folks facing this issue patch up the car to clear the obvious fault warnings and sell it on. Anyone contemplating buying a used dualogic should bear in mind that its previous owner may have done just that.

 

[chris red]

Hi. Sounds like it has not been serviced..

When was the fluid level last checked?

Ideally need to be plugged in and gone through properly.

Oil is cheap..and not a complicated job.

Any guides how to check the level/add more fluid? I've not noticed it under the bonnet.

 

[jrkitching]

Any guides how to check the level/add more fluid? I've not noticed it under the bonnet.

Unfortunately things aren't that simple. First you need to run diagnostics to depressurise the system (those without access to multiecuscan or examiner might be able to find a workaround by pulling fuses and turning the right things on and off in the right order). Then you need to get under the car to check the level - it's another of those jobs that's meant to be done in a well-lit workshop with the car on a lift (which makes working on the car significantly easier).

Generally speaking the level will only change if you have a problem (most likely a leaking seal or gasket), and then you're in serious repair territory as both technical information and individual parts are both as hard to find as hen's teeth.

Replacing the actuator & pump complete are, however, straightforward DIY jobs if you can stomach the price of the parts.

 

[chris red]

I do have MES, is it worth checking if the car drivers fine as a preventative?

 

[jrkitching]

I do have MES, is it worth checking if the car drivers fine as a preventative?

Can't hurt (well, not unless the car slips off the jack ).

What would really help is to check it regularly (say every 3-6 months), and record the level each time. The time to be concerned is when you notice a change in the trend.

Methodical and regular trend analysis is the key to on-condition maintenance. You need to find out what's normal for your car, and be alert to any change from that.

 

[varesecrazy]

Any guides how to check the level/add more fluid? I've not noticed it under the bonnet.

From a PANDA..
Unbolt the tin foil vover.. attemp to see the level

Unscrew reservoir cap..

Top up a little.

Teports say you can add TOO MUCH...??

 

[BobLeeSwagger]

Hello All,
I have posted this issue in Grande Punto section but since this is the one and only dualogic failure thread copying my post here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have 2006 Fiat Grande punto 1.4 8v 5 speed dualogic. now its has 140k on the clock and getting some issues on the gearbox/dualogic unit. (Dualogic electric pump was replaced 40k kms back)

Recently it has started this weird problem, which is quite dangerous. The gears suddenly change into neutral when i press the break. car was on the 4th gear as i remember and it went to neutral with several beeps.
I stopped the car and put it back to neutral position and try to change back to 1st (auto) and it changed to 2nd instead of 1st. The weirdest thing happened after. I accelerate the car and it went backwards.. while showing me 2nd on the info display. Luckily there were no vehicles behind me.

The i turned off the car and waited 30 seconds and start it again. it worked without any issues after that. Gears shifted normally. drove around 50-60 km without any issue and again same thing happened.

Car info display is now showing 'Manual transmission not available' with red warning light. when i shake the gear leaver little bit it will disappear and coming after sometime again.

I connected the multiecuscan and scan for transmission issues and found below 2 codes.
P1772 and P1773 (image attached)
Checked the oil pressure and it was 48bar and pump is working as expected.

Can these errors cause the issue? Really appreciate your help.

 

[p6baseunit]

Recently it has started this weird problem, which is quite dangerous. The gears suddenly change into neutral when i press the break. car was on the 4th gear as i remember and it went to neutral with several beeps.
I stopped the car and put it back to neutral position and try to change back to 1st (auto) and it changed to 2nd instead of 1st. The weirdest thing happened after. I accelerate the car and it went backwards.. while showing me 2nd on the info display. Luckily there were no vehicles behind me.

The i turned off the car and waited 30 seconds and start it again. it worked without any issues after that. Gears shifted normally. drove around 50-60 km without any issue and again same thing happened.

Car info display is now showing 'Manual transmission not available' with red warning light. when i shake the gear leaver little bit it will disappear and coming after sometime again.

I connected the multiecuscan and scan for transmission issues and found below 2 codes.
P1772 and P1773 (image attached)
Checked the oil pressure and it was 48bar and pump is working as expected.

Can these errors cause the issue? Really appreciate your help.

140000miles is good going and shows what the 1.4 engine and Dualogic control unit is capable of, with parts and servicing.

Your MultiECUScan is very clear, the gearlever switch unit is faulty or damaged and the Dualogic Actuator or Accumulator has a pressure issue.
Although since the P1773 code relates to anything on the Dualogic unit, it could be the Solenoid, the wiring, or pump and accumulator IF there is no leak from the actuator.

If the accumulator is failing, the pump will run the majority of the time and also prematurely fail etc.
The pump should run for 3-5seconds on opening the drivers door and on every 5th gear change (with the car stationary and you operating the gear lever from A/M to R etc). The pump should not be running the whole time.

So a hydraulic pressure issue will cause the Dualogic unit to drop into neutral and a damaged gearlever switch isn´t going to be able to communicate to the ECU what gear you want to be in LOL!

I would suggest that you change the gear lever switch unit first ASAP and this will probably cure your issues...

A hydraulic fault will cause the unit to drop into neutral, BUT it doesn´t wait for you to touch the brake pedal first etc. This to me sounds like all of the issues you are experiencing, relate to the gear lever.

 

[BobLeeSwagger]

Thanks for the reply mate.

Just need to clarify something though, my dualogic pump is working about 10-12 seconds when i open the drivers door. not 3-5 second short periods as you mentioned. also within every 2,3 gear changes. briefly. (3-5 seconds).
as i remember pump is working every time i put it to neutral. i haven't check the oil level recently

so is this mean that i have a leaking actuator or accumulator? is there anyway to check that using MES?

And the Gear selector issue. Really appreciate if anyone can tell me a place to buy that part (7354332560) brand new or at least a used one. found only one used item on ebay.

 

[p6baseunit]

Thanks for the reply mate.

Just need to clarify something though, my dualogic pump is working about 10-12 seconds when i open the drivers door. not 3-5 second short periods as you mentioned. also within every 2,3 gear changes. briefly. (3-5 seconds).
as i remember pump is working every time i put it to neutral. i haven't check the oil level recently

so is this mean that i have a leaking actuator or accumulator? is there anyway to check that using MES?

And the Gear selector issue. Really appreciate if anyone can tell me a place to buy that part (7354332560) brand new or at least a used one. found only one used item on ebay.

So the gearbox control unit is the same part as used on the 500 Dualogics also.
What you suggest is that the accumulator - Selespeed Vessel is tired basically. I am assume you don´t have a leak.

I really do think you have two separate issues though.
You have a faulty gear selection switch - which is capable of sending the message to the ECU to put the car in neutral when you press the brake pedal - which you can do on any Dualogic car, by selecting neutral and braking, even at speed.

A leaking actuator and/or pressure issues can cause the gearbox to drop into neutral - but it doesn´t wait for you to press the brake pedal (as if you had selected neutral by the gear lever on the Dualogic).

There is then a hydraulic pressure error - there is only one error though. If the actuator isn´t leaking, then in my opinion it´s a tired accumulator - Which is a fairly simple fix and less than a 100 pound if doing it yourself!
Depressurise the control unit, using the multiscan software and unbolt the accumulator and replace with a new one - https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Details&ProdID=5986&sku=64973

If the actuator is leaking - due to the cost of a new replacement and the value of the car (12 years old and 140K miles etc), you may want to try one of the reconditioned units on eBay for a 1/3 of the cost etc.