Hello,


I test drove an Audi A1 S Tronic 1.4 TSI 122 hp today. To be honest, i consider it way too expensive for what it is, i cant even fit in the back. Even though i tested the 4 door version i don't consider it a 4 door car with the back seats that small! A 4 door car should fit 4 people in comfort Mini Countryman style!


The engine was decent, loads of torque down below turbo style. It felt like the Twinair's big brother with 4 cylinders instead of 2! However with that turbo i don't think my consumption would be that good and i'd surely need to put the power juice 100 octane to keep her happy. One thing that stood out far above the Fiat 500, however, was the gearbox. Seamless shifts with the dual clutch system that made my Duallogic on the 500 feel like from the stone age. Even though the Duallogic is a fun box, the gear changes take like 10 times longer at least to change than the Audi S Tronic system! They should rename the box SingleLogic!
Come on Fiat get on the ball, its not like the Duallogic is cheap either they charge what 1000 euros for it?

If you want something sporty then learn how to use a clutch pedal and buy a manual.

306maxi said:

If you want something sporty then learn how to use a clutch pedal and buy a manual.

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Much, much slower than a dualclutch. Id get a manual for lets say an Aston Martin (not that you need to change gears much with such a powerful and wide torque range engine such as a V12), but for a city car auto please!
Sporty isnt the best word in the Athens traffic jams. I guess in the Welsh Riviera things are quite different!

ahmett said:

Hello,


I test drove an Audi A1 S Tronic 1.4 TSI 122 hp today. To be honest, i consider it way too expensive for what it is, i cant even fit in the back. Even though i tested the 4 door version i don't consider it a 4 door car with the back seats that small! A 4 door car should fit 4 people in comfort Mini Countryman style!


The engine was decent, loads of torque down below turbo style. It felt like the Twinair's big brother with 4 cylinders instead of 2! However with that turbo i don't think my consumption would be that good and i'd surely need to put the power juice 100 octane to keep her happy. One thing that stood out far above the Fiat 500, however, was the gearbox. Seamless shifts with the dual clutch system that made my Duallogic on the 500 feel like from the stone age. Even though the Duallogic is a fun box, the gear changes take like 10 times longer at least to change than the Audi S Tronic system! They should rename the box SingleLogic!
Come on Fiat get on the ball, its not like the Duallogic is cheap either they charge what 1000 euros for it?

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I wouldn't dream of owning a TSI with a DSG. Given the number of documented problems with the twin charger engine and the DSG gearbox an iron cast warranty would be a 'must'.
Have seen no issues to-date on the TCT (Fiat's version of the DSG) on the Alfa but Fiat are only allowing the lower powered MA turbo engines to use them (MA135). That said the tarted up A500s are still using the dualogic so they must be a robust gearbox.

Having owned an A3 TDi (sline) with DSG i would have to say .... they should all be crushed, its quite possibly the worst car i have ever owned. If you like something that jerks around town, hesitates when you pull away and does not let you have complete manual control (it will still change up even in manual mode) and is completely useless in the snow - i could get mine up a 6 inch incline then maybe its for you. It was never economical either.

Give me manual any day of the week.

SteveTDCi said:

Having owned an A3 TDi (sline) with DSG i would have to say .... they should all be crushed, its quite possibly the worst car i have ever owned. If you like something that jerks around town, hesitates when you pull away and does not let you have complete manual control (it will still change up even in manual mode) and is completely useless in the snow - i could get mine up a 6 inch incline then maybe its for you. It was never economical either.

Give me manual any day of the week.

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Given that a lot of drivers are downsizing it makes no sense to end up with 'big' problems. It's much cheaper to shift gear yourself. Plus if you have a dead battery at least you can get someone to give you a push to get you going.

I hope FIAT can upgrade the dualogic software soon and improve. Now it changes up from 1st to 2nd gear way too early.....even in SPORT mode.

sswcheung said:

I hope FIAT can upgrade the dualogic software soon and improve. Now it changes up from 1st to 2nd gear way too early.....even in SPORT mode.

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Errr this is not a dualogic thread.....

Fiat 500 is a basic little car. Cant understand any want or need for it to be more complicated with a fancy gearbox.If i had any input on the spec it wouldnt have electric windows or the city steering either

The Littlest Hobo said:

Fiat 500 is a basic little car. Cant understand any want or need for it to be more complicated with a fancy gearbox.If i had any input on the spec it wouldnt have electric windows or the city steering either

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Wasnt there a naked version in italy without the toys?

The Littlest Hobo said:

Fiat 500 is a basic little car. Cant understand any want or need for it to be more complicated with a fancy gearbox.If i had any input on the spec it wouldnt have electric windows or the city steering either

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I don't see a problem with the city steering, personally I think if you can't steer the car with the normal steering you shouldn't be able to drive, but that's another story.

Electric windows are fine and I don't have an issue with a dual clutch box as it'll be more efficient

306maxi said:

I don't see a problem with the city steering, personally I think if you can't steer the car with the normal steering you shouldn't be able to drive, but that's another story.

Electric windows are fine and I don't have an issue with a dual clutch box as it'll be more efficient

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Yes its interesting with top cars as for example the lambo aventador has a single clutch system as does the audi r8, while the newest ferraris have the dualclutch system. So does the Bugatti Veyron. Apparently lambos excuse was for the gearbox to feel more harsh and human during the changes and to save weight but i dont think 50 kilos would make such a big difference in a car like that, unless you are talking about a tenth or two on the race track.

ahmett said:

Yes its interesting with top cars as for example the lambo aventador has a single clutch system as does the audi r8, while the newest ferraris have the dualclutch system. So does the Bugatti Veyron. Apparently lambos excuse was for the gearbox to feel more harsh and human during the changes and to save weight but i dont think 50 kilos would make such a big difference in a car like that, unless you are talking about a tenth or two on the race track.

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The R8 will have the DSG in 2013 but the reason for the delay was down to the limited number of R8s sold. The Lambo is owned by Audi - expect that they will soon get it as well. On the Ferraris it was well known that with the use of 'Launch control' the clutch got fried after a couple of uses but the 458 certainly has the DSG. Got the impression that Ferrari always seem to delay passing on the 'goodies' to Maserati but it seems they also have it and since 2008.

Anyway - what's all this got to this with a DSG on the 500 ?

loveshandbags said:

The R8 will have the DSG in 2013 but the reason for the delay was down to the limited number of R8s sold. The Lambo is owned by Audi - expect that they will soon get it as well. On the Ferraris it was well known that with the use of 'Launch control' the clutch got fried after a couple of uses but the 458 certainly has the DSG. Got the impression that Ferrari always seem to delay passing on the 'goodies' to Maserati but it seems they also have it and since 2008.

Anyway - what's all this got to this with a DSG on the 500 ?

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Well i was basically thinking stinginess on Fiat's part to not have a dual clutch box as single clutch auto boxes are outdated now. The Mito has a DCT now!

But why? It works fine. OK, yours breaks a bit but then that's down to bad luck or your driving.

I'm very happy with my Dualogic and I suspect a fancy double clutch auto would be more expensive. Not interested.

loveshandbags said:

I wouldn't dream of owning a TSI with a DSG. Given the number of documented problems with the twin charger engine and the DSG gearbox an iron cast warranty would be a 'must'.
Have seen no issues to-date on the TCT (Fiat's version of the DSG) on the Alfa but Fiat are only allowing the lower powered MA turbo engines to use them (MA135). That said the tarted up A500s are still using the dualogic so they must be a robust gearbox.

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My boss had a brand spanking new Seat Ibiza Bocanegra with the TSI lump and DSG... three months later he flogged it on as the 'box was horrid- sometimes it wouldn't change down, leaving you crawling onto a roundabout in second, then other times it would kick-down too eagerly when you gently prod the pedal.

I see no reason why the TCT won't appear in high power stuff- it's based around the new 6-speed box specifically designed to cope with the higher torque demands of today's turbo'd engines. Only reason why I can see it not appearing in a 500 is size and cost reasons. The C514 Dualogic 'box is adequate for Fiat's needs for the model. Maybe it'll appear in the Abarth version, but not the usual "city runabout" spec cars.

The FPT TCT is light & low friction. Would be a great addition to any car, especially a city one

D4nny8oy said:

I see no reason why the TCT won't appear in high power stuff- it's based around the new 6-speed box specifically designed to cope with the higher torque demands of today's turbo'd engines. Only reason why I can see it not appearing in a 500 is size and cost reasons. The C514 Dualogic 'box is adequate for Fiat's needs for the model. Maybe it'll appear in the Abarth version, but not the usual "city runabout" spec cars.

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I would like to qualify an earlier statement about the TCT being only available in the lower powered MA engines - it was true for the MiTo 135MA - not available on the MiTo QV with 168bhp.

In the Giuletta it's available on the 168bhp MA petrol engine. There is a Giuletta 2.0 Diesel engine with 170bhp is also available (doesn't come up on the configurator) and that pumps out 350Nm !

Review of the TCT done here. Checking out the spec sheets on the TCT it is based on the C635 gearbox which has been designed to take inputs of 350Nm. So like the MiTo MJ 1.6 whose engine outputs 320Nm this is the technical limit of the M32 at 320Nm which explains the failures particularily when they get 're-mapped'.

One key feature of the TCT is that it's a dry clutch unlike the DSG in the VAG which is Wet (although they are going Dry with the 'new' 7 speed S-tronic). Dry setup is more efficient & emission friendly. Discussion on wet V dry here.

In the US they have just released a 500 T Sport which is a low boost MA engine in the same guise as the MA135 and it's being released with a robotised gearbox using the C510 - the same competiizone on the European A500. So they are not getting the DSG and the US are not fans of the 'Selespeed'.

IMHO I seriously doubt that the 2013 Abarth MA 500 will get a TCT due to space restrictions with more crash protection re-enforcements that will get 'carried over' from the US model.

If the current day Fiat 500 doesn't get the TCT for cost reasons it will become space reasons in the 'face lifted' version in late 2012 / 2013 or whenever it arrives.

MiTo TCT 135 £17,500 (an extra £1,250 over manual)
Audi A1 DSG £16,475
A500c T-jet 140bhp Competizon Paddle-shift (Dualogic) £17,883
500 TA Lounge Dualogic + ESP/Hill-holder £13,830

If TCT was added to the 500 finanacially it would add a minimum of £750 to the price making it £14,330. How many would actually buy it ?

And then Fiat would have the embarrassment of having to possibly remove the 'option' in 2013.

While the Dualogic gearbox is pretty decent for what it is, it's NOT sufficient as a full automatic. Aus customers tent to hate any automatic that's not in the 'PRND' configuration and they really dont like the Dualogics as they still roll back on inclines and arent as smooth as a DCT or torque converter etc etc.

If Fiat wants to get anywhere in Automatic dominant markets (Aus, US, Japan etc) they need a DCT or torque converter auto in their cars. Although these markets (with the exception of the US) aren't that big for Fiat at the end of the day so they should be fine. Personally, unlike most Aussies, i can't stand automatics and only like cars with 3 pedals.

I wonder how the US market will like the 500T with a robotized gearbox? hopefully they do a good software update to speed up shifts, improve shift logic and smoothness.

nobody if going to build a torque converter box for a small car these days.... No one.

As an Aussie I resent the insinuation that we all like autos. That is simply not true unless you're talking about Falcons, Commodores and other big cars.