Technical LED brake light replacement

[Hughbarlin]

I’m driving a 2012 Panda Twinair Lounge and I want to replace the brake lights with LED ones. Apparently, they might trigger fault warnings. Something about the CANBus system and the lower current they draw. My question is: what LED units will work without needing a resistor or anything else? There must be a specification or a make that someone has tried and found works.

 

[the green vanper]

Hello,

Yes, it's not only, but mostly about the resistance. So - you have two possibilities.

Buy a dedicated LED light cluster (from a tuning company for example, but I have no idea if they were available anywhere for a Panda).

Or buy LED 'bulbs' with a resistor inside.

There is no LED that would work without an appropriate resistor on a CAN equipped car. You can't fool physics.

The other thing is the direction of the light emitted by the classical bulb (around 300 - 330 degrees) and LED (it depends, could be very narrow). But could be also almost as wide as the classical tungstene bulb.

And the most important in my opinion - the homologation requirement. The light source is homologated in its integrity: lamp (or cluster) + the bulb / LED / xenon etc. Changing one element voids the homologation. I don't know how the British MOT is organised and how severe are insurrance companies examinations in case of an accident. On the continent a non homologated light source can be used as a argument to stop the insurrance claim payment... So, think twice.

Why do you want to change tungstene bulbs to LEDs?

 

[Hughbarlin]

Hello,

Yes, it's not only, but mostly about the resistance. So - you have two possibilities.

Buy a dedicated LED light cluster (from a tuning company for example, but I have no idea if they were available anywhere for a Panda).

Or buy LED 'bulbs' with a resistor inside.

There is no LED that would work without an appropriate resistor on a CAN equipped car. You can't fool physics.

The other thing is the direction of the light emitted by the classical bulb (around 300 - 330 degrees) and LED (it depends, could be very narrow). But could be also almost as wide as the classical tungstene bulb.

And the most important in my opinion - the homologation requirement. The light source is homologated in its integrity: lamp (or cluster) + the bulb / LED / xenon etc. Changing one element voids the homologation. I don't know how the British MOT is organised and how severe are insurrance companies examinations in case of an accident. On the continent a non homologated light source can be used as a argument to stop the insurrance claim payment... So, think twice.

Why do you want to change tungstene bulbs to LEDs?

Thanks. So, more complex than replacing bulbs. The main reason is that bulbs tend to go at the most awkward times and cannot be quickly replaced. Since it’s illegal to drive with a broken light and the fines are high, I thought this might be a solution.

 

[Panda IIs]

Thanks. So, more complex than replacing bulbs. The main reason is that bulbs tend to go at the most awkward times and cannot be quickly replaced. Since it’s illegal to drive with a broken light and the fines are high, I thought this might be a solution.

I'm no expert but I believe that LED bulbs are illegal in the UK if not original equipment. Panda brake lights would be a lesser concern for me since you have 4 bulbs plus the high-level LED strip so a little bit of redundancy there, plus the CanBus will flag an error if just one of these fails.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

I'm no expert but I believe that LED bulbs are illegal in the UK if not original equipment. Panda brake lights would be a lesser concern for me since you have 4 bulbs plus the high-level LED strip so a little bit of redundancy there, plus the CanBus will flag an error if just one of these fails.

Not quite: only 1 brake light each side (there are two twin filament bulbs each side, but one of each is nighttime taillight only.)
But yes, you are not permitted to install an LED bulb into any light that was designed to have a filament bulb in the U.K., and most of the rest of Europe. However, only a halogen headlight fitted with LED bulbs will fail a MOT test. For other lights, so long as they work, are the right colour and approximately the right brightness, they’ll pass.
I’ve never had a brake light bulb fail… in over 40 years and many hundreds of thousands of miles. Only the odd number plate light and a few headlights.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Thanks. So, more complex than replacing bulbs. The main reason is that bulbs tend to go at the most awkward times and cannot be quickly replaced. Since it’s illegal to drive with a broken light and the fines are high, I thought this might be a solution.

Carry spares in the car. If you’re pulled over and can show you have a spare, they will let you fit that rather than fine you.

 

[Hughbarlin]

Not quite: only 1 brake light each side (there are two twin filament bulbs each side, but one of each is nighttime taillight only.)
But yes, you are not permitted to install an LED bulb into any light that was designed to have a filament bulb in the U.K., and most of the rest of Europe. However, only a halogen headlight fitted with LED bulbs will fail a MOT test. For other lights, so long as they work, are the right colour and approximately the right brightness, they’ll pass.
I’ve never had a brake light bulb fail… in over 40 years and many hundreds of thousands of miles. Only the odd number plate light and a few headlights.

Thanks for this clarification. As to light bulbs failing, I’m surprised you’ve not had a failure! I’ve only had two, a 2000 Multipla and the 2012 Panda. Both seem to go through headlights brake lights and other electrics. I have often had to replace bulbs in both cars. On the Multipla, the cooling fan burnt out and the whole heating/cooling system became unusable and too expensive to repair. The Panda running lights and headlights have all come loose and needed reseating. I’ve just had to have the ECU repaired on the Panda.
I just figured unstable electrics was a First thing. I actually like both cars, otherwise.

 

[Hughbarlin]

Carry spares in the car. If you’re pulled over and can show you have a spare, they will let you fit that rather than fine you.

Good advice, thanks. I always had some in my Multipla but stopped because there’s no storage space in the Panda. Might try to find some space under the boot floor.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Thanks for this clarification. As to light bulbs failing, I’m surprised you’ve not had a failure! I’ve only had two, a 2000 Multipla and the 2012 Panda. Both seem to go through headlights brake lights and other electrics. I have often had to replace bulbs in both cars. On the Multipla, the cooling fan burnt out and the whole heating/cooling system became unusable and too expensive to repair. The Panda running lights and headlights have all come loose and needed reseating. I’ve just had to have the ECU repaired on the Panda.
I just figured unstable electrics was a First thing. I actually like both cars, otherwise.

Ah, I’ve had failures, especially headlights. My old Multipla used to eat them, and the ‘other side’ would fail just a week later. And it and all four Pandas have had failures of the number plate lights, and the heater controls too. But never the brake lights - given that my current 4x4 diesel Panda went 44000 miles before needing brake pads, maybe I don’t use them as much?

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Good advice, thanks. I always had some in my Multipla but stopped because there’s no storage space in the Panda. Might try to find some space under the boot floor.

Mine are in the glovebox, a very small kit that takes little space. (And part of my glovebox is occupied by the Fiat USB/Aux in box that some models had.

 

[Hughbarlin]

Ah, I’ve had failures, especially headlights. My old Multipla used to eat them, and the ‘other side’ would fail just a week later. And it and all four Pandas have had failures of the number plate lights, and the heater controls too. But never the brake lights - given that my current 4x4 diesel Panda went 44000 miles before needing brake pads, maybe I don’t use them as much?

Ah yes, the heater controls: the lights on the left side of the temp/fan control panel go off. Then I hit the top of the panel and they go on again. They tell me fixing it involves removing the dashboard!

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Ah yes, the heater controls: the lights on the left side of the temp/fan control panel go off. Then I hit the top of the panel and they go on again. They tell me fixing it involves removing the dashboard!

No, fixing it is a doddle. I put a guide up for the older (pre 2012) model, and later added an update for the current version. Can be done in five minutes tops.
See here: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/how-to-replace-panda-heater-control-lights.298058/

 

[Hughbarlin]

No, fixing it is a doddle. I put a guide up for the older (pre 2012) model, and later added an update for the current version. Can be done in five minutes tops.

Really? Search Herts Hillhopper on You Tube?

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Really? Search Herts Hillhopper on You Tube?

No - a guide in this forum. I’ve added the link to the post above

 

[Hughbarlin]

No - a guide in this forum. I’ve added the link to the post above

Duh.

 

[the green vanper]

The main reason is that bulbs tend to go at the most awkward times and cannot be quickly replaced.

Use good quality bulbs - Tungsram, Osram, Hella. Avoid no-name bulbs from supermarkets. They are cheap, but you'll have to buy several of them to replace.

 

[DKMark]

I’m driving a 2012 Panda Twinair Lounge and I want to replace the brake lights with LED ones. Apparently, they might trigger fault warnings. Something about the CANBus system and the lower current they draw. My question is: what LED units will work without needing a resistor or anything else? There must be a specification or a make that someone has tried and found works.

Osram LED bulbs, street legal in EU now at least. Should be canbus friendly

NIGHT BREAKER LED | OSRAM Automotive

With the NIGHT BREAKER LED, OSRAM is introducing a legal LED lamp in the headlights of your car as a replacement product for halogen lamps.

www.osram.com

Mark

 

[chris3234]

Osram LED bulbs, street legal in EU now at least. Should be canbus friendly

NIGHT BREAKER LED | OSRAM Automotive

With the NIGHT BREAKER LED, OSRAM is introducing a legal LED lamp in the headlights of your car as a replacement product for halogen lamps.

www.osram.com

Mark

UK isn't the EU they are not legal here

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Osram LED bulbs, street legal in EU now at least. Should be canbus friendly

NIGHT BREAKER LED | OSRAM Automotive

With the NIGHT BREAKER LED, OSRAM is introducing a legal LED lamp in the headlights of your car as a replacement product for halogen lamps.

www.osram.com

Mark

Actually, not quite
They are only legal when used in specific cars in specific countries - there’s a list in the Osram website (https://www.osram.de/am/night-breaker-led/night-breaker-led-ledcheck.jsp?mkt=/ledcheck/). The Fiat 500 can use LED headlight bulbs in Germany, but not in some other countries. But the Panda cannot. To date, no approval has been granted for any cars in the U.K. but hopefully that will happen soon…

Currently, any car presented for an MOT test in the U.K. will be failed if headlights designed for halogen bulbs are fitted with LED bulbs. Oddly, that doesn’t apply to motorbikes. Also, it doesn’t apply to any other lights - they can have LED bulbs so long as they’re the right brightness and the right colour — such as the brake lights the OP was asking about,

My Landy has complete replacement 7 inch headlights that are LED, and that’s allowed.

Here’s the text from the current MOT Testers Manual: (here https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-ins...ectors-and-electrical-equipment#section-4-1-4)

“
Existing halogen headlamp units on vehicles first used on or after 1 April 1986 must not be converted to be used with high intensity discharge (HID) or light emitting diode (LED) bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp for light source and lamp not compatible.”

“This does not refer to complete replacement headlamp units which may be constructed with HID or LED light sources.”

Again, oddly, an older car can have LED bulbs in the headlights… where’s the logic in that? You can even get LEDs that still have the ‘warm white’ of halogens! https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/pr...-beam-conversion-9-32v-excellent-beam-pattern

 

[the green vanper]

The Osram retrofit LEDs are not legal in the whole EU. I could use them on my Ducato for example in Czechia and Germany, but not in Poland...

But I still think of buying a set and use them abroad. By the time I'll finish the build perhaps they will be legal all around the EU