Technical Wrong Oil / Engine Flush

[Ecopod]

Hello, a two parter depending how much you like to read!

Garage put wrong oil in my 2015 500X 1.4 Multiair / 140BHP / 101 000 miles / Manual.
I’ve ordered 8 litres of Selenia Digitek 0W/30, two filters and one Multiair oil strainer/filter From Shop4Parts (thanks to reading previous threads). Oil has already been changed by garage but I’m not convinced it was a thorough job (see below). I’m planning on draining fully, refilling along with new filter, running engine and then repeating again with another new filter and new strainer.
Should I use an engine flush product or does this risk doing more damage.

Deep cuts info!
Garage put in wrong oil (unknown at the time) and around 8 months later car developed misfire, stalling, starting issues, warning lights etc seen on other threads. The issue re oil was identified and they changed the oil and filter free of charge. Fault has reappeared two months later and garage is claiming it will be unrelated and fault codes are showing pre cat air sensor issue and potential turbo issue making repair uneconomical. I have driven car back home. I’ve suggested to garage issues may be related as symptoms are identical but right now they’re not having it. As above I believe it is worthwhile changing oil and making a good job of it. The garage have also said using the wrong oil wont have any impact on either the air sensor or the turbo which I struggle to believe. I’m also inclined to think the poor running engine will impact on the air sensor in any case. There is also a strong possibility I’m wrong as I’m no mechanic and it wouldn’t be the first time!

 

[Bonefish Blues]

What did they put in, out of interest, and how far had it been driven in those 8 months?

 

[Ecopod]

What did they put in, out of interest, and how far had it been driven in those 8 months?

I’m led to believe it was 5W30 but they didn’t seem entirely sure. It was driven around 6000 miles.

It was Arnold Clark - a Renault dealership put the wrong oil in and a Fiat dealership changed it.

 

[s130]

Would not bother with chaning the oil filter if recently new. These filters know nothing about oil other than letting multigrades through and filtering out debris.

If you drain when warm and leave to stand draining of a couple of hours / overnight then I don't think a fill / drain / fill is required.

Oil flushes are good (?) at supposedly getting rid of contaminents etc. but I've personally used one. Also on a multiair engine you have small mechanical oil pumped actuators containing seals etc. which is totally different to a normal engine where oil seals are confined to valve stem seals and these are low pressure and not high pressure seals.

On a miltiair engine I would recomment the "oil flush" manufacturer is contacted and asked if their product is compatible with uni/multiair engines.

 

[Ecopod]

Would not bother with chaning the oil filter if recently new. These filters know nothing about oil other than letting multigrades through and filtering out debris.

If you drain when warm and leave to stand draining of a couple of hours / overnight then I don't think a fill / drain / fill is required.

Oil flushes are good (?) at supposedly getting rid of contaminents etc. but I've personally used one. Also on a multiair engine you have small mechanical oil pumped actuators containing seals etc. which is totally different to a normal engine where oil seals are confined to valve stem seals and these are low pressure and not high pressure seals.

On a miltiair engine I would recomment the "oil flush" manufacturer is contacted and asked if their product is compatible with uni/multiair engines.

Many thanks for that. Good idea leaving it to drain overnight, it isn’t in the way so easy enough to do. My slightly revised plan is change oil and see if that gets it running okay again. Run for 500 ish miles and then change again along with both filters. I’m going to avoid the flush given it is a Multiair engine and having read more threads here re using such a product.

 

[chris3234]

Just drain and fill with the correct oil the ammout left in the engine isn't worth worrying about even if the incorrect spec

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi

I am 100% with you on 'correct oil is important'

Tried to keep my twinair solely on the correct Selenia product .. but had supply issues .. and the regular brand alternative Europarts recommended makes the car sound louder


No actual issues in a few thousand miles.. but it wont be in much longer


( probably a good compromise of a thorough drain and leaving the filter in.situ,
As these motors can have problems getting oil pressure back up to keep the uni- multi air )

 

[AndyRKett]

The multiair filter is just a mesh filter to protect the actuators for the multiair system from larger pieces of debris. I don't believe we are talking about a filter that is removing micron sized particles many of these cars go years and years with no one changing this filter.

The oil difference is 5W 30 versus 0w 30 so what this means is the 5W 30 oil will be thicker (slightly) when cold then as they both warm up they should perform in the same way. Realistically its unlikely that the oil caused any problems as often they may recommend using a different grade of oil in warmer or colder weather. The multiair is known to be fragile but its not so fragile that a very very slightly different grade of oil would damage it.

It may well be the initial issues where a symptom of something which has now failed and the problems you are seeing now with the pre cat air sensor issue and potential turbo issue.

Its important to work out what is going on. has the turbo failed, in which case this can reduce airflow to the engine and give weird sensor readings, or has the sensor failed in which case this could erroneously suggest there is a turbo problem.

At 100K+ miles, things like turbos are expected to be coming to the end of their life if that's never been replaced.

What I would recommend is looking for a good Italian car/fiat independent specialist who is likely to have a much better idea of what's going on and how to fix it, may also save you an absolute fortune by charging normal (not fiat main dealership) prices.

 

[Ecopod]

The multiair filter is just a mesh filter to protect the actuators for the multiair system from larger pieces of debris. I don't believe we are talking about a filter that is removing micron sized particles many of these cars go years and years with no one changing this filter.

The oil difference is 5W 30 versus 0w 30 so what this means is the 5W 30 oil will be thicker (slightly) when cold then as they both warm up they should perform in the same way. Realistically its unlikely that the oil caused any problems as often they may recommend using a different grade of oil in warmer or colder weather. The multiair is known to be fragile but its not so fragile that a very very slightly different grade of oil would damage it.

It may well be the initial issues where a symptom of something which has now failed and the problems you are seeing now with the pre cat air sensor issue and potential turbo issue.

Its important to work out what is going on. has the turbo failed, in which case this can reduce airflow to the engine and give weird sensor readings, or has the sensor failed in which case this could erroneously suggest there is a turbo problem.

At 100K+ miles, things like turbos are expected to be coming to the end of their life if that's never been replaced.

What I would recommend is looking for a good Italian car/fiat independent specialist who is likely to have a much better idea of what's going on and how to fix it, may also save you an absolute fortune by charging normal (not fiat main dealership) prices.

Thanks to all for replies so far, very kind to take the time to answer.

In the back of my mind was the thought this could’ve been going to happen in any case regardless of the oil issues. I’ll do a thorough drain and refill and I’ll put the new filters in anyway as I’ll have them.

I’ve found this sensor but not sure if it is pre cat or not. Ant help would be greatly appreciated.

RIDEX PLUS Lambda Sensor​

Article number: 3922L0454P

• TecDoc Engine Number: 552 63 624
• Lambda Sensor: Regulating Probe
• Thread Size: M18x1.5
• Length [mm]: 520
• Number of circuits: 5
• Condition: New

I’m off to Pitlochry for a few days walking but will log in as soon as I get back.

Cheers.

 

[varesecrazy]

Traditionally sensors are identical..

2 fitted either before or after the Cat for comparison

 

[nico77]

Traditionally sensors are identical..

2 fitted either before or after the Cat for comparison

I just had the post cat sensor changed (preheating fault) and can say that the pre and post cat sensors are not the same. This may only be wiring and connector differences though. The pre cat sensor is also quite a bit more expensive on the Mopar site. My original sensor was made by NTK - and so is the replacement fitted.

Search Results | Mopar eStore

store.mopar.com

 

[Ecopod]

I just had the post cat sensor changed (preheating fault) and can say that the pre and post cat sensors are not the same. This may only be wiring and connector differences though. The pre cat sensor is also quite a bit more expensive on the Mopar site. My original sensor was made by NTK - and so is the replacement fitted.

Search Results | Mopar eStore

store.mopar.com

Thanks to all again.

Just got this response from AutoDoc.

Lambda Sensor 3922L0454P RIDEX PLUS is the pre cat sensor.
According to the provided car’s details (FIAT 500X (334_) (2014-09 - ) 1.4 (103 KW / 140 HP)), the requested Lambda Sensor 3922L0454P RIDEX PLUS can fit your car.

Have purchased so it is available if needed when working through options. It was £83.89. If it doesnt fit then it’ll go back and I’ll try again.

Cheers.

 

[Ralf S.]

I'm not a fan of obsessing about oil grade too much. If you put 0W30 in and you live in Scotland, then engine won't feel any difference compared to if you move to sunny Kent etc. and start using 5W30.

The main thing is to keep the oil clean (i.e. changed regularly) since any gum and sludge can potentially jam up the MA system filter. If the book says change the oil once a year and 12,000 miles, then change it every 6 months and you're cool. I wouldn't bother flushing agents at 100,000.. it just won't be that nasty in there... but you should be able to use one without breaking anything. The flusher stuff is mostly kerosene and propanol, so the engine components won't be dissolved by it.

If the MA filter is a problem part, then it may be worth changing it at this milestone... but otherwise, just regular oil changes should keep the engine going.

Your lambada sensor could well be FUBAR at that mileage.. so change it, if the ECU codes say it's knackered. I dunno why a Turbo would be broken at 100k.. and you haven't said that your car is smoking out the back or lacking boost, so a turbo issues doesn't sound likely. I think you just need to check and adjust the actuator rod, if the lambada doesn't fix the misfire.


Ralf S.

 

[AndyRKett]

I'm not a fan of obsessing about oil grade too much. If you put 0W30 in and you live in Scotland, then engine won't feel any difference compared to if you move to sunny Kent etc. and start using 5W30.

The main thing is to keep the oil clean (i.e. changed regularly) since any gum and sludge can potentially jam up the MA system filter. If the book says change the oil once a year and 12,000 miles, then change it every 6 months and you're cool. I wouldn't bother flushing agents at 100,000.. it just won't be that nasty in there... but you should be able to use one without breaking anything. The flusher stuff is mostly kerosene and propanol, so the engine components won't be dissolved by it.

If the MA filter is a problem part, then it may be worth changing it at this milestone... but otherwise, just regular oil changes should keep the engine going.

Your lambada sensor could well be FUBAR at that mileage.. so change it, if the ECU codes say it's knackered. I dunno why a Turbo would be broken at 100k.. and you haven't said that your car is smoking out the back or lacking boost, so a turbo issues doesn't sound likely. I think you just need to check and adjust the actuator rod, if the lambada doesn't fix the misfire.


Ralf S.

I agree with everything Ralf said ^^^

they are both SAE 30 so both the same when warm, a minor difference when cold, but the thinner oils we use now are largely to reduce drag on components in the engine, if anything a thicker oil when cold like 5w30 is going to be more protecting of the engine as it warms up.

In years gone by as cars got older we used to put thicker oils into the engine anyway to aid with compression which is why a lot of classic car oils are much thicker 20w50.

I would recommend during an oil change getting the oil up to temperature, before draining. By all means use some fresh oil as a flush if you want to and re-drain again, (though not something I'd say is necessary)

An engine flush will still not get all the oil out. If you think about where the oil is in the engine, lining bearing surfaces, cam lobes piston rings, you do not want to get every drop of oil out...

again when building an engine they use a first start oil on components, thicker than the normal grade to protect the engine from its first start and running in.

So the obsession with 0w v 5w is irrelevant in this instance, the car probably left the fiat factory with 5w30 or higher till its first oil change.

The other issue with using a flush is flushing the oil out of the multiair system, which is highly pressurized and needs to be the oil used will not compress hence using it hydraulically in the multiair system. There is also likely means to remove air from the multiair system, but if you put a different fluid in their, it may compress more than the oil leading to unpredictable valve movement.

If the oil has already been changed once and that was a while back, then by all means change it again but its unlikely to have caused any problems, flush could cause you other problems that are best avoided. No garage uses oil flushes, unless you tell them too, its never part of any manufacturers instructions, even on multi million pound super cars.

 

[Ecopod]

I'm not a fan of obsessing about oil grade too much. If you put 0W30 in and you live in Scotland, then engine won't feel any difference compared to if you move to sunny Kent etc. and start using 5W30.

The main thing is to keep the oil clean (i.e. changed regularly) since any gum and sludge can potentially jam up the MA system filter. If the book says change the oil once a year and 12,000 miles, then change it every 6 months and you're cool. I wouldn't bother flushing agents at 100,000.. it just won't be that nasty in there... but you should be able to use one without breaking anything. The flusher stuff is mostly kerosene and propanol, so the engine components won't be dissolved by it.

If the MA filter is a problem part, then it may be worth changing it at this milestone... but otherwise, just regular oil changes should keep the engine going.

Your lambada sensor could well be FUBAR at that mileage.. so change it, if the ECU codes say it's knackered. I dunno why a Turbo would be broken at 100k.. and you haven't said that your car is smoking out the back or lacking boost, so a turbo issues doesn't sound likely. I think you just need to check and adjust the actuator rod, if the lambada doesn't fix the misfire.


Ralf S.

Many thanks for your (and other posters) detailed response.

Had a few more days in Pitlochry than planned - it was lovely - but back now and planning on doing this tomorrow when it’s hopefully a wee bit warmer.

All the bits have arrived so plan to warm engine and drop oil overnight - change pre CAT lambda sensor, change metal filter, change oil filter, refill with oil, cross fingers.

Issue was intermittent and when fine there was no issue at all with power and no smoking etc so have to assume turbo is fine - now wondering why they brought it up.

I’ll drop back in to update, just need to locate the sensors now for removal.

 

[jackwhoo]

I only use Bosch or ngk/ntk o2 sensors .

There are a lot of terrible far East manufactured sensors around that are faulty from new.

 

[Ecopod]

Update and a reminder to check the basics!

Drained oil overnight - first thing I noticed was there wasn’t as much of it as I had expected and definitely not 3.4 litres (which i think is the capacity). Like a fool I had not checked the dip stick before draining.

Changed lambda sensor and filters and refilled with oil. Ran engine to ensure oil was everywhere it should be and topped up again to full.

No warning lights at all now and had a run in the car with no issues - previously never got 20 yards without warnings / check engine light.

I’ll monitor oil levels but most likely will trade car in now.

Many thanks to all for taking the time to respond / help, very much appreciated.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Update and a reminder to check the basics!

Drained oil overnight - first thing I noticed was there wasn’t as much of it as I had expected and definitely not 3.4 litres (which i think is the capacity). Like a fool I had not checked the dip stick before draining.

Changed lambda sensor and filters and refilled with oil. Ran engine to ensure oil was everywhere it should be and topped up again to full.

No warning lights at all now and had a run in the car with no issues - previously never got 20 yards without warnings / check engine light.

I’ll monitor oil levels but most likely will trade car in now.

Many thanks to all for taking the time to respond / help, very much appreciated.

3.5 with filter change, 3.1 without filter change - accounts for your difference, perhaps?