Volkswagen emissions scandal

[StevenRB45]

That's irrelevant though.

Firstly, most people want electric windows for instance. Also consider the extra cost of putting keep fit windows in as an option.....you have to design them, get them manufactured, store them in the factory, put them in the manual, write the repair procedures up in the service manual, have how many different sets of door cards due to the different openings, have trim on the dash without the holes for leccy windows, have another body ecu.

The list goes on and on. It would probably cost Fiat a hundred thousand pounds to put a manual window option in for the 500, all so people could have something that most people don't want.

Rather regretting making a comment in jest as to how mean the standard spec of a VW is....

You can see it's cheaper to build cars to one spec, look at any Japanese car, lots of standard equipment but if it's not on the list you can't have it (in most cases). When building on an industrial scale it's cheaper to build lots of identically specced cars, especially if you aren't VW and can't charge 2 grand for a bonnet badge. Whether or not VWs reputation will survive the current storm and allow them to continue to charge more for the same as the class average is open to debate.

 

[puntofan01]

Rather regretting making a comment in jest as to how mean the standard spec of a VW is....

You can see it's cheaper to build cars to one spec, look at any Japanese car, lots of standard equipment but if it's not on the list you can't have it (in most cases). When building on an industrial scale it's cheaper to build lots of identically specced cars, especially if you aren't VW and can't charge 2 grand for a bonnet badge. Whether or not VWs reputation will survive the current storm and allow them to continue to charge more for the same as the class average is open to debate.

I know that, all I meant was that bearing in mind how we have the world of niche market cars, (BMW x6 anyone?) no one has thought of that.

 

[puntofan01]

Lol!

 

[AndyRKett]

I know that, all I meant was that bearing in mind how we have the world of niche market cars, (BMW x6 anyone?) no one has thought of that.

Niche market cars are made possible my the cost you pay for such a car like the X6, development costs are worth while. You don't invest a few million in R&D for an option maybe 2% of your market actually want, unless you know sales of that thing are going to earn you your money back

You can, if you really want, buy a poverty spec Dacia for under £6k brand new that doesn't even have a radio, but you can add a multitude of options. The reason that this isn't something most manufactures offer is because people don't routinely want dirt cheap cars like the Dacia and would sooner spend their £6k on a used model with more to offer.

Cheap cars come with other trade offs as well the sandero is only a 3 star n-cap car.

Everything you're arguing about exists so it's probably time to drop this discussion now.

 

[puntofan01]

Niche market cars are made possible my the cost you pay for such a car like the X6, development costs are worth while. You don't invest a few million in R&D for an option maybe 2% of your market actually want, unless you know sales of that thing are going to earn you your money back

You can, if you really want, buy a poverty spec Dacia for under £6k brand new that doesn't even have a radio, but you can add a multitude of options. The reason that this isn't something most manufactures offer is because people don't routinely want dirt cheap cars like the Dacia and would sooner spend their £6k on a used model with more to offer.

Cheap cars come with other trade offs as well the sandero is only a 3 star n-cap car.

Everything you're arguing about exists so it's probably time to drop this discussion now.

Fair enough. Btw, the current model Dacia Sandero is actually a 4 star euro ncap rating.

It wasn't an argument, it was just a random thought sparked by a previous comment on here, and which a certain person (not yourself) decided to insult me for.

 

[Gavv8]

I do rather love this whole trial by forum thing. No evidence needed, just a hunch

You seem quite happy to participate in it as usual...

 

[puntofan01]

You seem quite happy to participate in it as usual...

We must bow down to 306maxi, as he is The Fountain Of All Knowledge and Fact, we mere ordinary human beings can't even hope to compare to his superiorness, lol!

 

[pooroldcodger]

If you want to report a post use the button on the bottom left of that post.

No I won't be doing that. But I do think it's a shame that well-intentioned contributors to a forum discussion can suddenly and without warning be insulted by way of uncalled for insults.
It is very easy to cause distress by computer keyboard. It is also ironic that often the ones who cause the most upset are the ones who like to claim the moral high ground when it suits them.
We all know of course that such characters are usually misfits, bullys and "Billy No Mates" , but from behind a keyboard they are Superman.
Anyway, that's enough of a diversion from Volkswagen's dilema.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

That's exactly what I meant in my original post. Not everyone wants electric windows or aircon etc, but these people are rapidly running out of options.

But by not fitting electric windows you'll need manual ones, this is a whole load more cost at development stage of having this option. This is the point we're trying to make.

 

[StevenRB45]

But by not fitting electric windows you'll need manual ones, this is a whole load more cost at development stage of having this option. This is the point we're trying to make.

I'm not convinced there is a market for a truly basic car, I can count the number of "access" spec sanderos I've seen since launch on the fingers of both hands. They aren't hard to spot given the black plastic bumpers and bare wheels. Most people seem to buy in at the mid range.

Given the choice between a 2-3 year old fiesta and something that looks like a Corfu hire car I know which way I'd go.

 

[pooroldcodger]

I think you are right. It is so much more logical for manufacturers to have a common ecu , loom etc and then "activate" the options that go in to making up an SE or GT or whatever than having a complete poverty spec version and then having to add to it in 99.9% of the cars built. As somebody said above the days of options being reversing lights, radio and a heater have long gone.
I suppose if anyone has a hankering for the simple life, you could always buy a Classic Panda and the emissions are probably cleaner than a VW diesel as well!

 

[puntofan01]

I'm not convinced there is a market for a truly basic car, I can count the number of "access" spec sanderos I've seen since launch on the fingers of both hands. They aren't hard to spot given the black plastic bumpers and bare wheels. Most people seem to buy in at the mid range.

Given the choice between a 2-3 year old fiesta and something that looks like a Corfu hire car I know which way I'd go.

You do see a few base model Chevrolet Sparks, Nissan Pixos, and kas.

Anyway, I used the ultra basic spec as an example. By the same token, there could be features only available on top of the range models, which people could want on a lower model car: for example, I used to own a Punto Active, which didn't have side or curtain airbags. To my knowledge, the only UK spec 5 door mk2s that had 6 airbags were the Eleganza model, so I would've had to try and find 1 of those. I use that purely as an example.

With regards to the Dacia, I actually really like the Sandero, and whilst I wouldn't buy the basic model, I wouldn't have to hesitate for a second to chose a Sandero over a fiesta.

 

[pooroldcodger]

James May was a big fan of the Sandero on TG!

 

[puntofan01]

James May was a big fan of the Sandero on TG!

And he used to own a Fiat Panda!

 

[StevenRB45]

Everyone loves a daily mail article...first of all they are all as bad as each other. Not sure this is news, no substantial allegations of wrong doing...headline should be test known to be unrepresentative, is found unrepresentative.

Second apparently the arse is going to fall out of the used diesel VW market, meaning fleet buyers and lease companies won't want to use them..

Be interesting to see what happens to diesel/petrol values if it is industry wide.

 

[AndyRKett]

Everyone loves a daily mail article...first of all they are all as bad as each other. Not sure this is news, no substantial allegations of wrong doing...headline should be test known to be unrepresentative, is found unrepresentative.

Second apparently the arse is going to fall out of the used diesel VW market, meaning fleet buyers and lease companies won't want to use them..

Be interesting to see what happens to diesel/petrol values if it is industry wide.

Doesn't appear to be anything new in either of those articles, just appears to be the usual daily mail recycled news, nothing new so we'll just report on what's already happened.

 

[puntofan01]

This whole scandal reinforces the need for the emissions/road tax rulebook to be rewritten.

With regards to the official test, the test should measure actual fuel consumption, rather than calculating it from CO2 emissions. The test should be carried out on a track designed to replicate real roads and as such, should include hills, etc, and the test should make turbocharged cars use their turbos. The test may be expensive to create and implement, but at least it would be more accurate.

 

[puntofan01]

With regards to road tax, it should be based on engine size, not emissions. This would be a far fairer system than the current 1, where needlessly large engined cars' tax is based on an emissions reading which is unachievable in real life. Ideally, there should be no tax discount for diesels, hybrids, or electric cars, plus there should be an equivalency formula for turbocharged petrol engined cars.

With regards to ALL car emissions, the EU needs to create a more realistic test to measure the emissions from all cars, then use this to work out how unachievable in the real world their current, ridiculous targets are, and then decide on more realistic emissions targets. I completely agree that all emissions need to constantly be reduced, but the current regs are too unrealistic and as such, far to open to abuse by manufacturers.

 

[SeanW]

Am I the only one that's more concerned that they've gotten away calling themselves ******s for so long?

 

[306maxi]

With regards to road tax, it should be based on engine size, not emissions. This would be a far fairer system than the current 1, where needlessly large engined cars' tax is based on an emissions reading which is unachievable in real life. Ideally, there should be no tax discount for diesels, hybrids, or electric cars, plus there should be an equivalency formula for turbocharged petrol engined cars.

With regards to ALL car emissions, the EU needs to create a more realistic test to measure the emissions from all cars, then use this to work out how unachievable in the real world their current, ridiculous targets are, and then decide on more realistic emissions targets. I completely agree that all emissions need to constantly be reduced, but the current regs are too unrealistic and as such, far to open to abuse by manufacturers.

You do realise that CO2 emissions and fuel economy are directly linked right?

Oh wait :chin: