Technical Uno Turbo/X 1/9 Conversion

[Walter Lima]

Hello,
I'm a newcomer to this forum and looking for some technical expertise/knowledge about Uno turbo motors. I'm currently in the process of upgrading my X 1/9 motor to an Uno turbo mk1 motor I acquired and had shipped to Canada from Europe.
My question pertains to the ignition system, in particular the two pick ups (crankshaft sensor & the flywheel sensor).
Would the ignition system off a fuel injected X 1/9 work with this Uno turbo?
I know the Uno's system is a good system and have absolutely nil regrets in acquiring it. Availability of parts in Canada if it does break down is like trying to find chickens teeth and sourcing parts in Europe would mean delay in repairs....
I'm looking at alternatives to the Uno ignition set up that would allow for readily available parts in North America to repair same.
I don't know enough about the Uno motor yet, and didn't know if there was any underlying issues related to the engines normal operating functions that would prohibit this idea.

Cheers

Walter

 

[Chas Uno]

Hi Walter and welcome to the forum :wave:

In answer to your question, I don't know for sure but I would think it very unlikely that you could use the X19 ignition system with the Uno turbo motor. The biggest issue you have is that the turbo ECU requires data from the ignition and injection systems to run the engine with a turbo charger. If you start running the engine with a different ignition system then the ECU won't be getting the required data and probably won't run. There may be a possibility that the X19 injection system is similar to the Uno turbos but I really can't say for sure. As far as I'm aware the x19 was only available with a carburettor in Europe, certainly that's the case in the UK, therefore there isn't much knowledge here regarding the fuel injected X19 ignition system. Someone else on here may be able to offer some advice regarding the X19 system (Alex?), but you could also try this Uno Turbo website as they also have a section for Uno Turbo engined X19's and may be able to offer you some advice:

www.turbocollective.net

I'd also add that the Uno turbo ignition and injection system is generally very reliable so don't be afraid to use it. Bear in mind as well that Fiat used a German Bosch system rather than their Italian Magnetti Marelli supplier, so as standard the Uno Turbo ran with German engine management. That may well be why so many Uno turbo engines are still running well a quarter of a century after they came off the production line

All the best with your project and hope you find the information you are looking for.

Chas

 

[custard]

why not go for an aftermarket ECU set up?
this would solve any(most?) issues of importing parts

 

[Walter Lima]

Thanks for the info Chas, I will post question there too.

Aftermarket ecu may ultimately be the solution, I'm not a purist per say, but would like to have/use what Fiat offered in Fiats at this time.

http://s232.photobucket.com/albums/ee289/limaw/Uno Turbo X 19 Conversion/

hopefully this photobucket site works

 

[jo0lz]

Hi Walter and welcome to the forum
I think you'll find that most X1/9 owners who have transplanted an Uno Turbo motorr into the back have used the Uno UT's electronics.

Though I have heard recently on the Sporting Fiats Forum that there are a few guys in the US that have built MegaSquirt and MegaJolt systems for the X1/9 1500 SOHC and have freely available maps.......

So a MegSquirt + MegaJolt could be another solution

All the best with your transplant
Jo0Lz

 

[alexGS]

The Bosch L-Jetronic fuel injection setup on the 1980-ish X1/9 and Strada for the US market is very similar to the fuel injection setup on the Uno Turbo (the plenum chamber looks like the same casting), and actually I think FIAT/Abarth probably started with those bits when they developed the Uno Turbo.

There are separate ECUs for ignition and injection, as you know. The ignition ECU has a vacuum/pressure sensor. That is essential to map the ignition timing in response to turbo boost. Therefore the ignition ECU will be specific to the Uno Turbo and I think you will be wise to use it. It wouldn't surprise me if the crank sensor/flywheel sensors were the same parts as for the X1/9/Strada (they may not be, but I think they are). I recall something about the need to use the Uno Turbo flywheel with the X1/9 clutch - because the X1/9 flywheel has a different number of teeth.

The injection ECU is probably very similar to the ECU of a standard X1/9 - the airflow meter is the primary input - the injection ECU simply fuels the engine according to the amount of airflow, which will obviously be more as a result of the turbocharger.

So I think you should go ahead and use the Uno Turbo parts. I think the most likely parts to fail are the crankshaft sensors and possibly the distributor rotor and cap. But saying that, my Uno Turbo has been very reliable - those parts are good quality and last a long time. I don't think you will be creating much of a maintenance liability. I've never had to replace anything on my Uno Turbo ignition or injection-wise. I have a long history with the Unos, two X1/9s, and the 128 before that - and I honestly believe that the Uno Turbo Mk1 engine is the best of the lot for reliability - and durability.

Chas is right about the European X1/9 having a carburettor and breaker-points distributor - mine was a 1988 and I was disappointed it had points, considering the Uno had a breakerless distributor since 1986. I started to have intermittent trouble with the points within a year - the engine would cut out when hot, then restart and run fine - I replaced the distributor with a Strada electronic type and had no more problems.

I also had continual problems with the X1/9's carburettor and its silly automatic choke. Flat spots seemed inevitable and it always idled so fast when cold that I could hardly get it into reverse.

<rant> There are many people who are frightened of electronic engine management and who feel that points-and-carbs are 'simple and reliable'. I just don't agree. Simple, perhaps, but reliable - definitely not. Considering the delicate adjustment of the points gap, spring-loaded centrifugal advance, modulated vacuum advance and even retard in some cases, and the mechanical effects at high revs (floating, etc.) it's a wonder it ever worked at all. As for the carburettor, try to explain how it works and the calibration of progression jets, accelerator pump jets, 'full power' diaphragm, etc., and then the operating logic for the choke and fast idle, and I think you'll agree that fuel injection is conceptually far simpler. I know you were never arguing in favour of points-and-carbs, so this doesn't apply to you, but I mention it just to back up how reliable the Uno Turbo electronic ignition/injection is, compared to what went before. <rant off>

The alternative is to do as custard suggested and fit a completely aftermarket ignition and injection system - a lot more expensive, but probably best if you intend to modify the engine for more power (other than turning the boost up to 1 bar, which the standard ECU supports).

Since the X1/9 soldiered on until 1989 and the Uno Turbo was launched in 1985, I wonder why FIAT did not evolve the X1/9 to use the Uno Turbo engine. It would have made perfect sense, but the problem seems to be that the model was put out to pasture at Bertone and kept in a holding pattern for the last six years of its life. The Japanese are masters of 'reheating' an existing design, improving and refining it. The Italians seem to lose interest and eventually start on something all-new instead. Leaving you to pick up where they left off...


Beautiful looking engine, by the way Well done!

-Alex

 

[Walter Lima]

Thanks Alex, Awesome info posted. I will post pics of end result.
Had Fiat stayed in North America, I think the uno turbo motor would have eventually found its way into the X. We missed out!

Regards,

Walter

 

[Louie Bee]

can't add to the above apart from adding that I used to hate the 903cc Uno with it's points :bang:

but

Erm

:slayer:

Ten out a ten did you recon the insides to that standard too? have never seen a 1301 in this state :chin: is it real?

Hope Dunc don't see this... he'd probs have to start from scratch (again :devil lol.

 

[Walter Lima]

Thanks Louie,

It is real, especially when I reach for my wallet for machining/parts/shipping/zinc plating... and whatnot. It was a toss up between a full blown rebuild of the existing motor with dual carbs (which I think looks very cool), or putting in a 1600 and boring it out to 1840 like the prototipo or the uno turbo conversion. With the help of a mechanic friend and contacts in Poland, an Uno motor surfaced and I couldn't say no. It was being saved for a future project for the owners son, but timing was everything, dad and son had a falling out and I ended up with the motor.:slayer:
The original motor will go the route of the dual carb eventually, but that will be another project. (good to have a spare)
The X will be for road use, mainly, and I decided to go for longevity instead of just speed and power. The motor was completely rebuilt with standard components. The pistons are custom & forged-3 of the 4 original pistons were good-4th was bad. (waited 2 months for those)
Instead of modifying the thermostat housing I found a 1985 fuel injected X 1/9 being parted out and used its thermostat housing as it had the sending unit hole already included. (no drilling or threading required) Will make it easier to change the thermostat too when needed. The exhaust manifold had a slight crack in it-it was repair welded, machined and painted.
The plenum was polished by a buddy that does polishing for local custom motorcycle shops.
The original 4 speed transmission will be rebuilt and will have a NOS Ring and Pinion assembly with a gear ratio of 3.76. (from Midwest Bayless X1/9)
Should allow me to cruise in fourth without the high revs.
The turbo is still out being rebuilt, had some sourcing issues for bearings but that should be back next week.
Brakes and suspension mods to follow. Just working out the ignition system.
If all goes well I hope to test drive it in about 3-4 weeks. (sorry Dunc)

 

[Walter Lima]

Thanks for all your input onto this post. I've decided to stay with the uno's ignition system.
Rather then reinventing the wheel, is there a consensus as to "best practices" for this conversion relating to the ignition system? Can I get a run through on the set up?

Thanks in advance

Walter

 

[Chas Uno]

Thanks for all your input onto this post. I've decided to stay with the uno's ignition system.
Rather then reinventing the wheel, is there a consensus as to "best practices" for this conversion relating to the ignition system? Can I get a run through on the set up?

Thanks in advance

Walter

From what I understand, there's two ECU's and two looms. One is the injector ECU and loom, the other ECU and loom controls just about everything else including the ignition. There appear to be two crank sensors, one by the cambelt pulley and the other in the gearbox bellhousing. There are numerous other sensors on the engine and there's also the AFM unit too. You also need to consider the fuel pump that is also controlled by a relay and is interlinked with the ECU and wiring loom.

Best bet is to get hold of a Haynes Workshop Manual off Ebay. There's plenty of them and they don't go for much. Those will give you some good indications on what's required, plus I know the earlier 'orange' (mk1) Uno Haynes manual has comprehensive wiring diagrams listing most of the components and their locations.

What exactly is it you need to know regarding the UT ignition set up? Either one of the Turbo owners on here might be able to help you, if not you could try and ask in the www.Turbocollective.net website as there's some members on there with excellent knowledge of the UT and its workings.

Good luck and keep us posted with your developments

 

[Walter Lima]

Mainly in regards to the distributor set up with having the innards striped out from it.
As well, the ring gear on my uno's flywheel is too badly damaged to reuse and I have another making its way from across the pond. Which X 1/9 clutch assembly is the one that will mate with the uno's flywheel, 1300 or 1500?
Any uno conversion I've seen online doesn't specify this, or is that because it doesn't matter?:bang:

 

[jo0lz]

When I put a YuGo 1116cc SOHC in my X1/9
[Sacrilege I know]
This was a temporarily measure after the original 1500 warped its head !
I used the flywheel from the 1116cc and the clutch [drive and pressure plate] from the X1/9 1500

I also swapped the X1/9 1500 alloy sump and thermostat housing over to the 1116 as well

That said I have a Mk1 Uno Turbo bottom change box in my lockup
[plan is to strip the innards out to rebuild my knackered X1/9 box]
Looking at the bell housings and clutch actuation lever they look the same
So I would guess that you could use either the X/19 1500 or the Uno U/T clutch
But probably easier to use the x1/9 1500 clutch as you then can be sure that the splines on the clutch drive plate match the splines on the gearbox input shaft and the X1/9 release bearing will work OK with the fingers on the pressure plate

I'm not sure though if the Uno U/T flywheel is the same depth as the X1/9 1500. [it was on the YUGo 1116] This would have to be the same for the x1/9 clutch to work
So worth double checking the distance from the drive face of the flywheel from the end of the engine block of each flywheel

 

[Louie Bee]

Good stuff Walter!

There are 2 flywheels for the MK1 Uno Turbo (1299 / 1301cc), and 2 types of clutch kit..

the older type is for the bottom shift box, newer for topshift box.

I know the clutch driven plates are NOT interchangeable as the input shaft has a different number of splines - so chack it fits your box BEFORE you fit the plate to the flywheel .

Can't remember what the difference is between flywheels, but when I converted my MK1 from bottom to top shift gearbox I needed to also fit the flywheel of the newer type. I scrapped 2 of these flywheels

they have the same number of teeth on the ring gear (yes I counted them) and the starter motor is the same. I have had the engine running since the conversion so there is no difference for the pickup sensor .

 

[jo0lz]

Good stuff Walter!

There are 2 flywheels for the MK1 Uno Turbo (1299 / 1301cc), and 2 types of clutch kit..

the older type is for the bottom shift box, newer for topshift box.

I know the clutch driven plates are NOT interchangeable as the input shaft has a different number of splines - so chack it fits your box BEFORE you fit the plate to the flywheel .

As the X1/9 box is the older style bottom change, but adapted with the gear selector shaft coming out of the front of the box rather than the rear, I'd say its the older Mk1 Uno clutch kit that is more likely to suit the splines of the X1/9's gearbox input shaft

 

[Chas Uno]

Mainly in regards to the distributor set up with having the innards striped out from it.

As far as I'm aware the Uno Turbo distributor has little in it other than a rotor arm! On the mk1 turbos I've seen the distributor fits on the end of the camshaft and it's literally an adjustable housing for the rotor arm. You can adjust the timing by rotating the housing (loosen the mouting nuts obviously) but other than that all other timing and ignition is done by the ECU in conjunction with the sensors.

As well, the ring gear on my uno's flywheel is too badly damaged to reuse and I have another making its way from across the pond. Which X 1/9 clutch assembly is the one that will mate with the uno's flywheel, 1300 or 1500?
Any uno conversion I've seen online doesn't specify this, or is that because it doesn't matter?:bang:

If possible I would try and use the Uno Turbo flywheel and clutch assembly. As Louie has mentioned there are two types of clutch available for the Uno Turbo depending on which gearbox is fitted. You need to find out how many splines the X19 gearbox has to determine which clutch to fit. If the X19 uses the earlier Strada based gearbox it will have 17 splines (I think), whereas later Uno turbo gearboxes use a Tipo based gearbox that I think uses 20 splines.

By the way, are the gold fittings on your engine painted or anodised? You engine really does look gorgeous!

 

[Walter Lima]

Thanks all, great info here

The plates/bolts... are zinc plated Chas.

 

[Louie Bee]

You can adjust the timing by rotating the housing (loosen the mouting nuts obviously)

I've heard that it don't effect the timing one bit on the Uno Turbo IIR I was told you need to move the TDC sensor . I can't confirm this as I can barley say I've run one

Can't say I understand how the ECU adjusts the timing because but it's not by rotating owt inside the distrubutor.

Whatever it does, it may correct incorectly adjusted distributor rotation, but HOW????

 

[alexGS]

Louie is right, even in his strange Northern way ("owt"? "barley"? ) Turning the distributor really has no effect - as long as the rotor arm is near the lead contact when each plug fires, that's all that's required. I guess if the distributor is in the wrong place, the spark will be a little weaker as it will have to jump a gap between the rotor and the lead.

The timing is, in theory, adjusted by moving the TDC sensor - in practice, that shouldn't be necessary.

-Alex

 

[Walter Lima]

"Louie is right, even in his strange Northern way"-Too funny!