Technical Twinair cold starting issue. Please help

[varesecrazy]

Hi all
I have a problem the last few years with cold starting. up, summer it's perfectly fine.
I want to resolve this so will be looking deep into fixing and I can then at least add to this thread with a resolved or something to help others.

So recap I have tried.
Oil plus filter changes ( Selina oil)
Map sensor clean.
New plugs.
Small oil filter by plugs new filter.
Tested for spark when it's cut out and still sparks no problem.

Thanks all

Hi,

The small filter by the plugs..
That's the mesh screen supplying the Uniair I assume?

I own 2 Twinair,

a Euro5 covered 70k from new runs great

A Euro6 bought at 10k and from purchase it has a SIMILAR Issue.. BUT with HEAT

I have used MultiECUscan to try and make sense of what the ECU is seeing

But have found no real differences between the 2 motors

Have you got any ECU feedback figures yet?

 

[puntodeltathema]

So just to throw some stuff in. Actually from a 2015 1.2 8v (Euro 6) Panda. Very similar issues - first start when cold can be very problematic especially in cold and damp weather. But once running is sweet as a nut and no more issues at all until the next morning.

We've done MAP sensor, plugs, a procedure I found in MES to bleed the fuel system of air, other basic checks, all without success.

But the one thing that does seem to have improved it was switching to E5 fuel. This is a very low mileage car so we wondered if water was building up in the fuel (supposedly an issue with E10) making cold starts in particular a problem.

For what it's worth.....

Nick

 

[F1iceman]

Hi
To me it's cutting the fuel off spark is present whe. It has failed and it starting which is very strange, it does smell of fuel either even with foot down trying to start it. Only sometime after 30nseconds of the foot down might you get the odd smell of petrol but then it starts with a splutter and the runs.
I have changed the filter by the plugs made no difference it's just a very strange fault to have a perfect car onces starts and all summer no starting issues at all.
To me it's like some kind of map issue from sensors it's just very strange but it is also a strange engine.
I just don't get the wear just when it's cold to why it won't start it's just started doing it again in October it's not that cold and I know it's going to get worse ATM it's hit and miss if it will do it or not from one day tithe next but ink ow when the winter kicks in it will be every morning.
I was think something like fuel pressure issues or something like that just a strange one.

I don't have any data I need to get the software next for this fault.
I just think it's like something possible choke start map or something ???
Does this sound possible.
I bet this year there will be loads with this issue when it gets cold.
So I really want solve it if I can hoping it's not the uniair I just think it cut the fuel and what needs to be done is the injector out so see what happens there.
It does have a spark when it doing the problem so next step is the fuel has it been cut or not.

This is defo a fun challenge.
Perfect otherwise.

 

[F1iceman]

Hi,

The small filter by the plugs..
That's the mesh screen supplying the Uniair I assume?

I own 2 Twinair,

a Euro5 covered 70k from new runs great

A Euro6 bought at 10k and from purchase it has a SIMILAR Issue.. BUT with HEAT

I have used MultiECUscan to try and make sense of what the ECU is seeing

But have found no real differences between the 2 motors

Have you got any ECU feedback figures yet?

 

[F1iceman]

Hi I have changed the filter before with a new one not cleaned it.
New oil no changes to the problem
I just think it's cutting the fuel one I did mention is coudl it be linked with the start stop function or the start maps if it has them.
But to me it's like no fuel and it's cut, spark is there so is this a fueling issues like some has said pressure or something.
I think the best way is to check if the injectors are firing the fuel or have they been cut off at that point.
Such a strange fault.
The fact this has never been solved tells me people either getting rid of the cars or not posting up when they have fixed them.
Eg if it's had a new uniair system fitted kinda thing.
I think that's the key to if that's the problem or not if thats has been changed everything is working and problem gone.
I am on 110,000 miles now.
But problem probably started around 30 thousand miles ago.
Lol used is Selina oils I think 0/30.
It's winter again so it service time again just got to fix the new water leak and will doing the oil and so on again any way see if it helps.
Could we suspect fuel pump not reaching pressures ??
Is it leaking back creating sir locks I don't know, I guess the big test is that injector test when the fault is happening.
Pop one out see if itssquirting fuel or not.

 

[jrkitching]

I am on 110,000 miles now.
But problem probably started around 30 thousand miles ago.

A failing uniair module is consistent with that; IIRC the early ones were particularly prone to failing. Unfortunately I don't know of any easy way of testing it without specialised kit, and testing by substitution would be both expensive and time consuming.

The kind of kit described in the linked article that was used to pin down that uniair fault costs north of £5000. It's not something most garages are going to have.

If you can run the engine on one cylinder, and there is anything different about the way it runs depending on which cylinder is working, that would point toward that being the cause.

 

[varesecrazy]

The specialist in Hampshire was developing repair kits for Multiair...
Not sure if Twinair has the same sealing issues?

 

[jrkitching]

Not sure if Twinair has the same sealing issues?

Right now we only know that some of these units have failed, not why they have failed, or if they can be dismantled and any worn parts or seals replaced or reground.

The specialist in Hampshire was developing repair kits for Multiair...

I'd say there's definitely a market if anyone can develop a way of re-manufacturing these uniair modules.

 

[F1iceman]

Well this problem is the least of my problems now think head gasket has gone :-(
Might be time for a new Betty now.
The problem with the starting issues is it running and starting then stopping, why would it stop it starting and working shows it works, then runs perfect all day.
To me it don't make sense wear else this would a problem in all areas.
It's far too reliable for this one silly moment where maps and stuff take part especially sensors for the fuel.
But I still think what ever it is something is shutting the fuel off.
How can it go from co pressing to non then it back again just because of a temparyre change, it don't make sense at all.
I know it's a strange engine but sparks I think it need testing like I have said is there fuel coming out the injectors when the fault is present.
This for me is the big test.
I have this new problem now I am looking at so probably won't be on the cards for awhile now to test the fuel injectors for awhile.
Has anyone changed a fuel pump to resolve this or a pressure sensor ??

Thanks for all info so far.
Keith

I will keep playing if I can.

 

[jrkitching]

now think head gasket has gone

What makes you think that? It should be possible to verify with a simple compression test.

 

[F1iceman]

What makes you think that? It should be possible to verify with a simple compression test.

Sorted now it was dripping last night, I changed the thermostate and changed the wtaer pump, I thought it was a second leak as the area round where the head gasket is was soaked and looked like it was running down from there with the stains on the casings.
Turns out it's not that it must be where it was spraying before front he thermostate.
I have found a leak on the pipe to he heater on the thermostate so have double clipped it then should solve the problem.
But thank gosh it's not the headgasket leaking the outside.
I did do a pressure test on the coolant system but would not pressure up
All good so far so think that's all ok now.
Next step is solving this mystery start problem.
Seems ike a great one to solve for everyone.

 

[F1iceman]

I think it's coming out the first stage of cold starting. This is very rich mixture to let the car start. This first stage is timed 5-10 seconds. Then it enters stage 2 where the mixture is constantly weakened according to rising engine temperature. Here the car seems to have problems so metering becomes incorrect.
Did your problem start with overnight temperatures of 10 degrees and lower?
-64 degrees of ignition timing seems to far ahead. Normal figures are around 10 degrees idling, even full throttle should not exceed 30 degrees.

Is it possible to change this time of 5-10 seconds for the first stage ???
See if the problem can be changed or moved the problem cutting out.

 

[milko]

Hi all
I have a problem the last few years with cold starting.
1. She starts but after about 30 seconds cuts out, if you can rev it and keep it 2000 revs it will struggle a little bit stays running and then you just have to go go go and start driving else will cut out.

2. Now for the issue that normally happens is she can cut out before all that and takes about 1 to 2 mins of cranking and foot down on throttle to get started again
Once running I have to do as above in No 1, now the daft thing is once we are going again there is no issues with Betty untill morning again works perfect all day no issues at all starting.

3. What I have noticed is summer it works great no issues at all, but when it's cold outside this is when she fails again.

4. it has been like this for a couple years now, it's not oil I have done the oil changes to try to resolve, does not show a fault code for anything.
Start stop works fine, new battery.
I am suspecting the lamba sensor is the fault for the cold readings or something.
The oil light does go out so I pulled that pressure issues out that's quite common.
I am tempted to just throw a lamba sensor at it see if this solve the issue.
I have read lots of the posts but everything stops with no info to say they fixed it or not, so I have started this one as I feel I have added a clear version of the cold and the summer starting cold it plays up, summer it's perfectly fine.
I want to resolve this so will be looking deep into fixing and I can then at least add to this thread with a resolved or something to help others.

So recap I have tried.
Oil plus filter changes ( Selina oil)
Map sensor clean.
New plugs.
Small oil filter by plugs new filter.
Tested for spark when it's cut out and still sparks no problem.

Fuel is being cut is what it feels like but foot down and 1min of cranking as she starts and splutters a bit then revs and just hold the revs to 2000 get off the drive and go without stopping and she will then be fine all day stop leave come back starts ok again all day.
Morning starts 30 seconds cuts out back to the same thing again 1min cranking ect....
Like clock work stuff to get going again.

Thanks all

Hey you have just described this car to a tee. I have changed the lambda sensors. Silly question but which side of the cat does the 5 wire lambda go. Someone has had a go before I got this car, so they maybe the wrong way round.

 

[z rider]

My car is playing in this league, starts fine in summer and ugly behavior in winter. Figures so far are:

Overnight temps over 15 degrees - car starts fine and doesn't cut out,
Overnight temps beyond 15 degrees - car starts fine but cuts out after 5 to 10 seconds. From my experience it's better to let it simply cut out, it makes the following cranking sequence shorter. Actually I have double cut out before she's running normal.
Last winter it was -"surprise, surprise"- when temperatures fell beyond zero the car didn't cut out but continued runnig.

Have done engine flush, oil and filter change, selenia oil, twinair filter renewed etc. but didn't help. 155000 km on the clock.

Lambda sensors don't play up in this phase of starting, they are to cold and are ignored by ecu.
Actually I am thinking of testing the ecu by making it easy to take out and keep it in my warm home overnight. If this should show effect I will throw a new ecu at it.

 

[z rider]

5 wire lambda is the upper one between catalyst and engine.

You cannot alter the time of first stage, it's part of the software.
For me it feels like a part of the software is missing, the part that covers temperatures between zero and fifteen degrees,

 

[John202020]

Be interesting when below 15c what would happen if you tricked the ecu into thinking the engine/air was warmer? Then flicked back after a minute?
If it works you have your answer, a mapping hiccup?

 

[z rider]

I think it's not the sensors, temp sensor came new with thermostat as the plastic pipe failed.
My thoughts go to ecu internals that are temperature sensitive (solder joints or other hardware that may be faulty).
Other possibility is that software is knackered and needs to be reflashed.

 

[The Panda Nut]

So just to throw some stuff in. Actually from a 2015 1.2 8v (Euro 6) Panda. Very similar issues - first start when cold can be very problematic especially in cold and damp weather. But once running is sweet as a nut and no more issues at all until the next morning.

We've done MAP sensor, plugs, a procedure I found in MES to bleed the fuel system of air, other basic checks, all without success.

But the one thing that does seem to have improved it was switching to E5 fuel. This is a very low mileage car so we wondered if water was building up in the fuel (supposedly an issue with E10) making cold starts in particular a problem.

For what it's worth.....

Nick

Our cars also run much better on E5. The TA is awful on E10.
I would definitely do the temerature sensor on this, or at least check the contacts are clean. Replace thermostat if its integral. My TA's have both had hissy fits with starting and occasionally make odd noises when cold idling. The stop start sometimes embarrases when it takes two goes to start. This is only slight and is occasional. I think its better when the plugs have just been changed and worse as they get older. Do read the report by Mark Stammers tagged above its highly informative.

 

[The Panda Nut]

5 wire lambda is the upper one between catalyst and engine.

You cannot alter the time of first stage, it's part of the software.
For me it feels like a part of the software is missing, the part that covers temperatures between zero and fifteen degrees,

I think they refined the fuelling maps a lot from 2018, and think you are onto something with this. My 2019 is a totally different beast to the 2017 that preceeded it. Mad this is even possible given how many different cars have used this engine.

 

[F1iceman]

Since I have messed with the car with the water pump she has not done the starting issue for 3 days now on the trott.
I am monitoring this now to see if it goes bad again.
This was defo a major issues but never had it do this before where it has not at this time of year had no issue starting in the morning.
Give me a week and I can see if it's still ok.
Things I have done since was the water pump changed the thermostate changed, the pulley wheel removed may have gone on with a slight few mm timing advance and also cleaned the hall sensor to the drive pulley.
Other thing are thing like battery disconnected for few days and ect out the car re fitted ect...
I have not done anything other than this.
I am looking at it being the sensors clean or the timing advance due to me only using the pulley tool didn't lock the rest of so timing could have gone either way by a mm.

Will report back soon as I know more.
ATM she is starting no issues.
But was playing up before any work I did.
Might be related who knows with this fault.
Keith