Nearly put this in the Panda section but then, as it seems to afflict more than Pandas I decided to go here. The primary subject is Becky, our 2010 Panda 1.2 Dynamic Eco (so euro 4 engine with solid cam sprocket).
When we bought her, back near the turn of the year, one of the problems that came with her was, what sounded like, a worn alternator bearing. (although a tensioner or water pump bearing could make the same noise) during my long life in and around "the trade" I've heard plenty of them and was in little doubt. I was particularly interested to see what it turned out to be as my oldest boy's 2012 Punto 1.4 8valve (so variator type cam pulley) was making a similar noise but more quietly.
Investigations (disconnect fan belt) I thought, proved the noise to be something to do with the cam belt/tensioner/water pump on both engines. I didn't investigate further as both engines were getting Gates belt kits with water pump so I thought that would cure it. Both cars were done within short order and my boy went off happily with his after I had tried it out for a couple of miles down the road and back. At first I thought Becky was fine. I did a few trips out of the city to my other boy's house and drove around town - all seemed well. Then my wife started driving again after her eye operation so I was now outside the car listening to her drive down the road and on her return. Damn! Isn't that the bearing noise I heard previously. I removed the fan belt. Noise still there! Oh B****r! The noise is not noticeable in the car, although once you know it's there you can just hear it - Mrs J heard nothing! Standing in front of the car, especially with the bonnet up, it's really quite obvious. Most noisey from 1200 to around 1600 rpm. Much quieter at tickover and lost in general engine noise around 2000 rpm.
I really couldn't understand what was going on here so decided to have a listen to the Punto next time my boy called round. In the meantime I bumped into a fellow mechanic who I hadn't seen for some time and, in conversation, mentioned it. "Don't know about Fiat's but Fiestas do it and they have the same engine don't they?" Then the Punto turned up and there was the noise, not so loud as Becky but, definitely and quietly, there! Completely inaudible from the driver's seat.
Yesterday I went up town to try to find something to buy with the book token my brother gave me last Christmas! Standing at the bus stop I suddenly heard the noise! Turned round expecting to see Mrs Jock. But no, it was a young woman parking against the traffic with her cars nose in the bus stop, so right behind me. The car? A Ford Fiesta!
Well, I just couldn't wait to get stuck into Becky and find out what this phenomenon is. So I was up early this morning and, after taking Mrs J her cup of tea and ginger nut biscuit (our morning ritual) I got stuck in - to Becky! First off did an engine scan with MES - All OK! Ran her with fan belt removed, noise still there! Ok, engine mount, crank pulley and belt covers off (getting really good at doing that engine mount now!) So I'll run her with the drive exposed and go looking, only trouble is, SHE CRANKS BUT WON'T START! Oh Gawd! What have I broken? Probably one of those wires that are so difficult to get out of the groove in the plastic belt covers. Started looking for broken wires. Then, brainwave, plug in MES! Maybe it'll give me a clue! Oh yes! Crank position sensor! Great, at least I know what wire I'm looking at now! Oh! Wait a minute! It can't work without the reluctor ring on the pulley can it? Put the damn pulley back on YOU PRAT! Of course she then started right up!
Just standing hanging over the OSF wing the impression I get is the noise is in the area of the tensioner. I have two favourite tools when going looking for noises like this. A "proper" mechanics stethoscope and a leangth of nylon "listening" tube. A nice long screwdriver does the job just as well as the stethoscope but is rather more dangerous to use because you need to have the handle in your ear with the blade on the thing you're trying to diagnose so it's hard to see where you're poking it and if it slips - well!
I went for the stethoscope first. With the engine running I probed various parts of the block and cylinder head then stationary parts of the tensioner and water pump. Very strange! I can still clearly hear the noise but not through the tool! Both water pump and idler are running super smooth and quiet! Then I plugged my "listening" tube into my left ear (at my age it's important to use the "good" ear!) I started with the other end of the tube around the crank sprocket, all quiet. Moved up to the water pump, nothing unusual. Started moving across towards the tensioner and started to hear the noise! Ok, it's coming from somewhere around the tensioner/cam sprocket area. Very slowly and carefully (lots of fast moving stuff here) I moved the end of the tube around this area again and again. It's got to be the tensioner hasn't it? Well no actually because the noise is louder near the cam sprocket! But there's only a bushed bearing here so it can't be that (never heard one make a noise like this). So let's move the end of the tube very very slowly. Ok it gets most noisey with the end of the tube exactly opposite where the belt starts to run round the cam sprocket, right where the teeth on the belt are engaging with the teeth on the sprocket.
I never heard a belt do this before, and I've done lots of belts, but all older cars. In a way it reminds me of an over tensioned belt on a car with a fixed (not spring loaded) tensioner. OK let's have a cup of tea and come back to it. So, with tea mostly drunk, let's start again. How's the belt running? Absolutely text book case, not trying to run against the guides on the water pump or anything. Tensioner indicators lining up beautifully on top of one another. You can see them moving slightly with the engine running which indicates the spring loading is doing its job. Go back in with the stethoscope and listening tube - same result. The noise is definitely being produced by the belt meshing with the cam pulley. So why not where it meets the water pump or crank sprocket??. The belt kit was a Gates brand, I've used Gates for years and years and never had a problem. Double checked both on line and with supplier, definitely the correct kit.
So maybe they're all like this? The noise is not raucously loud but, once you've heard it you can't stop noticing it - like the Fiesta at the bus stop. Inside the car it's almost inaudible - out on the open road you don't hear it at all (and you only hear it from the outside on the Punto, and, although the same noise it's quieter than on the Panda). As I can't find anything actually defective, indeed everything looks absolutely A1, I intend to just keep on running both cars and see what developes. I would be very interested to hear if anyone else has experienced this strange effect and, if so, what was the outcome? I think the 1.2 euro 4 is non interference? Although I'm really pretty sure the Punto's in trouble if it's belt let's go?
Any thoughts anyone?
Looking forward to being told not to worry as they're all like this?
Regards
Jock.
When we bought her, back near the turn of the year, one of the problems that came with her was, what sounded like, a worn alternator bearing. (although a tensioner or water pump bearing could make the same noise) during my long life in and around "the trade" I've heard plenty of them and was in little doubt. I was particularly interested to see what it turned out to be as my oldest boy's 2012 Punto 1.4 8valve (so variator type cam pulley) was making a similar noise but more quietly.
Investigations (disconnect fan belt) I thought, proved the noise to be something to do with the cam belt/tensioner/water pump on both engines. I didn't investigate further as both engines were getting Gates belt kits with water pump so I thought that would cure it. Both cars were done within short order and my boy went off happily with his after I had tried it out for a couple of miles down the road and back. At first I thought Becky was fine. I did a few trips out of the city to my other boy's house and drove around town - all seemed well. Then my wife started driving again after her eye operation so I was now outside the car listening to her drive down the road and on her return. Damn! Isn't that the bearing noise I heard previously. I removed the fan belt. Noise still there! Oh B****r! The noise is not noticeable in the car, although once you know it's there you can just hear it - Mrs J heard nothing! Standing in front of the car, especially with the bonnet up, it's really quite obvious. Most noisey from 1200 to around 1600 rpm. Much quieter at tickover and lost in general engine noise around 2000 rpm.
I really couldn't understand what was going on here so decided to have a listen to the Punto next time my boy called round. In the meantime I bumped into a fellow mechanic who I hadn't seen for some time and, in conversation, mentioned it. "Don't know about Fiat's but Fiestas do it and they have the same engine don't they?" Then the Punto turned up and there was the noise, not so loud as Becky but, definitely and quietly, there! Completely inaudible from the driver's seat.
Yesterday I went up town to try to find something to buy with the book token my brother gave me last Christmas! Standing at the bus stop I suddenly heard the noise! Turned round expecting to see Mrs Jock. But no, it was a young woman parking against the traffic with her cars nose in the bus stop, so right behind me. The car? A Ford Fiesta!
Well, I just couldn't wait to get stuck into Becky and find out what this phenomenon is. So I was up early this morning and, after taking Mrs J her cup of tea and ginger nut biscuit (our morning ritual) I got stuck in - to Becky! First off did an engine scan with MES - All OK! Ran her with fan belt removed, noise still there! Ok, engine mount, crank pulley and belt covers off (getting really good at doing that engine mount now!) So I'll run her with the drive exposed and go looking, only trouble is, SHE CRANKS BUT WON'T START! Oh Gawd! What have I broken? Probably one of those wires that are so difficult to get out of the groove in the plastic belt covers. Started looking for broken wires. Then, brainwave, plug in MES! Maybe it'll give me a clue! Oh yes! Crank position sensor! Great, at least I know what wire I'm looking at now! Oh! Wait a minute! It can't work without the reluctor ring on the pulley can it? Put the damn pulley back on YOU PRAT! Of course she then started right up!
Just standing hanging over the OSF wing the impression I get is the noise is in the area of the tensioner. I have two favourite tools when going looking for noises like this. A "proper" mechanics stethoscope and a leangth of nylon "listening" tube. A nice long screwdriver does the job just as well as the stethoscope but is rather more dangerous to use because you need to have the handle in your ear with the blade on the thing you're trying to diagnose so it's hard to see where you're poking it and if it slips - well!
I went for the stethoscope first. With the engine running I probed various parts of the block and cylinder head then stationary parts of the tensioner and water pump. Very strange! I can still clearly hear the noise but not through the tool! Both water pump and idler are running super smooth and quiet! Then I plugged my "listening" tube into my left ear (at my age it's important to use the "good" ear!) I started with the other end of the tube around the crank sprocket, all quiet. Moved up to the water pump, nothing unusual. Started moving across towards the tensioner and started to hear the noise! Ok, it's coming from somewhere around the tensioner/cam sprocket area. Very slowly and carefully (lots of fast moving stuff here) I moved the end of the tube around this area again and again. It's got to be the tensioner hasn't it? Well no actually because the noise is louder near the cam sprocket! But there's only a bushed bearing here so it can't be that (never heard one make a noise like this). So let's move the end of the tube very very slowly. Ok it gets most noisey with the end of the tube exactly opposite where the belt starts to run round the cam sprocket, right where the teeth on the belt are engaging with the teeth on the sprocket.
I never heard a belt do this before, and I've done lots of belts, but all older cars. In a way it reminds me of an over tensioned belt on a car with a fixed (not spring loaded) tensioner. OK let's have a cup of tea and come back to it. So, with tea mostly drunk, let's start again. How's the belt running? Absolutely text book case, not trying to run against the guides on the water pump or anything. Tensioner indicators lining up beautifully on top of one another. You can see them moving slightly with the engine running which indicates the spring loading is doing its job. Go back in with the stethoscope and listening tube - same result. The noise is definitely being produced by the belt meshing with the cam pulley. So why not where it meets the water pump or crank sprocket??. The belt kit was a Gates brand, I've used Gates for years and years and never had a problem. Double checked both on line and with supplier, definitely the correct kit.
So maybe they're all like this? The noise is not raucously loud but, once you've heard it you can't stop noticing it - like the Fiesta at the bus stop. Inside the car it's almost inaudible - out on the open road you don't hear it at all (and you only hear it from the outside on the Punto, and, although the same noise it's quieter than on the Panda). As I can't find anything actually defective, indeed everything looks absolutely A1, I intend to just keep on running both cars and see what developes. I would be very interested to hear if anyone else has experienced this strange effect and, if so, what was the outcome? I think the 1.2 euro 4 is non interference? Although I'm really pretty sure the Punto's in trouble if it's belt let's go?
Any thoughts anyone?
Looking forward to being told not to worry as they're all like this?
Regards
Jock.