Technical Starter Motor woes

[Matt23]

Hi All

I've been tidying up my 2004 1.2 Panda since purchase having brought it for my daily commute and also as the 'learner' car for my daughter.

The starter motor failed a few weeks back, I knew it was failing but unsurprisingly did nothing until it totally failed one morning leaving the poor chap stranded on my sloping drive.

I got a decent replacement from my local supplier and went into battle to fit it, I much more fiddly job than I had hoped for and one that exposed the Haynes manual for the useless investment it was !

When I removed the electrical connectors from the old motor prior to pulling it out I noticed a thin spring washer behind the ignition connection, it was corroded and in 2 pieces, my local supplier didn't have one and suggested only a main dealer would have then, I needed the car fixed so carefully soldered the washer back together, I assumed it carried little current and all was well once the whole thing was back together.

It's been about a months and all was fine until the last week when I've started to have problems starting the car, I turn the key and nothing happens I repeat the process a number of times and eventually it starts as normal, the battery is fairly new and I've double checked the terminals.

I suspect this washer may have something to do with it along with the repeated restarts it's been going through every Sunday with our learner driver !

Anyone had a similar issue or know the part number or a suitable replacement for the spring washer, I'm not looking forward to having to remove that starter motor again :bang:

 

[dac69er]

i wouldnt have thought a spring washer would make any difference to the car starting or not. the spring washer would only be there to provide some tension to the nut so it doesnt come undone.
when you say you have checked the connections, have you checked them properly again with a spanner?


was it off the thicker cable connection from the battery or the thinner one that activates the solenoid?

when it does turn over, do you hear a clicking from the solenoid, or nothing at all?

 

[Trimdoner]

The spring washer IS unfortunately the feed for the starter solenoid from the main terminal. It's a stupid setup, because as you've found the washer rusts through and collapses.
I had this problem a couple of years ago, and it appears it's only available as that section of wiring loom!! I used a second hand one.

 

[DaveMcT]

Does the noise go away if your start with clutch pedal down?

 

[koalar]

sounds like the ignition switch

does it sometimes give a little cough as you turn the key

In one car it started as sometimes you turn the key and nothing sometimes works fine.

between tries you have to remove the key from the barrel.

You can normally test by when it fails to start. Keep holding the key fully and press a little firmer than normal. Then very, very, slowly release the key. If it will start like this then it will be the switch.

It does start to work normally every now and again


both of my cars have had a faulty ignition switch. One I have replace. Not an easy job. Had to do it twice. Thought I would get away with dismantling and spraying contact cleaner. Didn't work so used one from a Punto.

 

[Matt23]

The spring washer IS unfortunately the feed for the starter solenoid from the main terminal. It's a stupid setup, because as you've found the washer rusts through and collapses.
I had this problem a couple of years ago, and it appears it's only available as that section of wiring loom!! I used a second hand one.

Thanks, I suspected it might not be available on it's own, from what I could see the power signal from the ignition switch relies on that weird spring washer to make the connection to the starter solenoid.

The problem is intermittent and I guess it could be down to something else (I'll give everything else a good check over) but my money is one that, I wasnt happy with my bodge at the time

Did you manage to get one from a breakers ?

 

[Trimdoner]

Did you manage to get one from a breakers ?

Luckily for me my son had a complete damaged Panda for spares at the time. Mine's a diesel, the donor car was petrol but the starter connection was the same.
If you find one, at least the starter doesn't need to come off again - just a bit fiddly to change in situ.

 

[DaveMcT]

Just to add - When the ignition switch is changed the original lock is kept.

 

[koalar]

Just to add - When the ignition switch is changed the original lock is kept.

correct

Fiat use two types of switch. From memory mine had one large contact and the rest were small. I believe this is the more common type.

but not an easy job. unless you are in luck and everything lines up first time as when you remove the switch everything falls apart.


The Panda has a retaining cap which covers the end of the switch held on by lugs

then the switch has two.

you have to be super careful not to snap any

under the switch is a nylon gear/cam.

the problem is there's no visibility to line everything up.

I "THINK" you can see the gear before you disassemble. You can certainly see the return spring through a hole at the front. If the nylon cam just above it is visible a dab of paint would make reassemble so much easier.


I used a second hand one from a Punto. I can't remember if it was from a grande. I normally pick a Grande if I can as they are closer to the panda. Access to the rear latch was worse so to save damaging it I cut it out.



I did assemble it wrong at one stage. Worked fine but backwards. Take the key out to start it and but the key in to stop it

 

[Matt23]

Below is a pick of the weird spring washer I'm talking about thats part of the wiring loom

 

[koalar]

doubt it cause an interment problem


unlike the earlier puntos both the solenoid and main supply are on the same post. The plastic bit with the washer in the photo just mashes down on top of a washer that has a tab that connects directly to a solder joint on top of the solenoid.


test the continuity of the Black wire to the solder joint. As long as there continuity it will be fine. There's not much current flowing here

 

[Matt23]

doubt it cause an interment problem


unlike the earlier puntos both the solenoid and main supply are on the same post. The plastic bit with the washer in the photo just mashes down on top of a washer that has a tab that connects directly to a solder joint on top of the solenoid.


test the continuity of the Black wire to the solder joint. As long as there continuity it will be fine. There's not much current flowing here

I guess having just replaced the starter and been unable to replace the corroded through washer it was the first thing that came to mind, I made a pretty good job (if I do say so myself) of soldering it back together but I would have much preferred to replace it.

If it isn't the mentioned washer I think its unlikely its the starter motor connections as as I double checked them a few days after fitting the new starter to make sure it was all tight and the batter terminals are also in good order.

It's odd when its happens it seems holding the ignition switch in the start position longer seem to resolve the problem although it can take a few goes but when it does start turning over its fine, spinning up so much faster than the old starter.

I havent been able to look at it over the weekend due to the weather but I'm starting to winder if the ignition switch could be at fault, hopefully it will be OK until next weekend when I can investigate properly....up date to follow

 

[DaveMcT]

It does sound like the ignition switch.


You can test the starter with a jump lead. Clip it to the starter terminal and hold the other clip to the battery positive. If it engages and spins nicely, the starter is fine.

 

[Matt23]

Many thanks to all that offered advice I think (fingers crossed) I have the issue sorted out.

I managed to get hold of a decent replacement wiring harness for the starter circuit for less than £15 via Ebay, I didn't really expect it to resolve then issue but I wasnt happy with the state of the one in there.

Once fitted I put the battery back in and turned the key and lost all power to the ignition circuit, after a bit of messing around I found the correct fuse in the engine compartment and tried a new one which promptly blew again. I then isolated the starter motor and the fuse no longer blew.

Luckily I purchased the starter motor from my local car shop rather then the internet and got a decent one with a 2 year warranty, they provided a replacement without question and now all is well with the Panda

 

[varesecrazy]

You must have known..


Title 3 weeks ago said it all.

 

[Timpanda7]

Many thanks to all that offered advice I think (fingers crossed) I have the issue sorted out.


Matt would you please detail how you removed the 'starter motor'...?
I have a 2005 Panda and it seems an impossible task to get to the bolts and I can hardly see the starter motor even from under the car.


Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[varesecrazy]

Many thanks to all that offered

I have a 2005 Panda and it seems an kimpossible task to get to the bolts and I can hardly see the starter motor even from under the car.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

What engine.. petrol I assume?

 

[Timpanda7]

What engine.. petrol I assume?

It is the 1.2 petrol, manual.
This is my only car and due to the virus lockdown have to somehow get it going all by myself.
Thank you for any help.

 

[varesecrazy]

You will have to raise the car enough to be able to 'half.sit' in the space between engine and bulkhead (passenger area)

That way you can get you arms into all the corners

The job is basically the same as mk1 and mk2 punto.. and the cinq +sei cars

Remind us what brought you to need starter access

 

[koalar]

You will have to raise the car enough to be able to 'half.sit' in the space between engine and bulkhead (passenger area)

That way you can get you arms into all the corners

The job is basically the same as mk1 and mk2 punto.. and the cinq +sei cars

Remind us what brought you to need starter access

Never tried from underneath. But there's more than one way to skin a cat.

I don't jacking the car up and do it all from the top. In fact you cant reach the back bolt if you do jack the car up without very long arm. One bolt is easy. The other goes from the back so isn't visible but has plenty of space around it to put a socket on by touch.

Hardest part is normally taking the plastic covers of the back of the starter motor.


Done a few on the road and in the breakers. It is a 5 minuet job or less when you know the knack.


But probably safer to disconnect the wires from underneath though.