Technical Question on engine

Currently reading:
Technical Question on engine

Joined
Sep 14, 2020
Messages
12
Points
54
I have a 1970 124 spider with a 1438 engine. Recently when I went to start it cold it started spewing/pumping a good amount of coolant out of the radiator while cranking. After a lot of coolant came out it started and ran fine but is overheating even with topping off the radiator. Radiator is new. The oil also seems to have coolant in it. No oil in coolant. That seems to be a cracked head, bad head gasket or cracked block. So two questions 1. Could it be something else. 2 I haven’t seen any new or rebuilt engine blocks for the 1438. So if I had to replace the engine could I put a 1600 in it? If so would the bolts line up with the existing transmission? Thanks for any thoughts. I have done a ton to the car so I want to try to fix it.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_6537.jpeg
    IMG_6537.jpeg
    1.8 MB · Views: 62
  • IMG_6535.jpeg
    IMG_6535.jpeg
    1.8 MB · Views: 29
Coolant is getting into the oil but oil is not in the the coolant as far as I can tell. Almost seems like exhaust / compression gases are getting into coolant to overflow radiator at startup.

Any way to tell whether it is a cracked head or block vs head gasket or both before tearing it apart?

Thanks so much
 
Coolant is getting into the oil but oil is not in the the coolant as far as I can tell. Almost seems like exhaust / compression gases are getting into coolant to overflow radiator at startup.

Any way to tell whether it is a cracked head or block vs head gasket or both before tearing it apart?

Thanks so much

Has the motor been exposed to the severe LOW temperatures of the last 2 weeks in North America?
 
Those 1438cc engines were very reliable in my experience, never saw one crack a block or head unless very severely overheated or frozen solid (i.e. no antifreeze). Blown head gaskets, yes, but usually only after big miles or as a consequence of compromised cooling systems. So I'd reckon that your problem is more then likely just a failed head gasket.

Re:- blowing coolant out of the radiator filler? Was this just after fitting the new radiator? I see it's a crossflow type (I'm not a fan), could it have been a simple air-lock? Or was the engine previously running ok with the new rad? Why was the rad changed to an aluminum type? Previous overheating?

But, of course, this wouldn't explain coolant getting into the engine oil.
One thought, that oil cooler mounted behind the new rad - I'm assuming from the little I can see of it that it isn't connected into the engine cooling system? (would have been better/more usual to mount the oil cooler in front of the radiator).

I'm not aware of any test that can distinguish between a blown head gasket and a cracked head or block. A cylinder compression test will detect either (a) compression pressure leaking between cylinders from a failed head gasket or (b) compression pressure leaking into the coolant system causing over-pressurisation -will also show up as bubbles in the rad filler neck or in the coolant expansion tank, in extremis, will eject coolant. Coolant leakage tester will betray the presence of exhaust gases in a sample of coolant, as will a sniff-test using an exhaust gas analyser probe inserted into the space above the coolant in the expansion tank or rad filler neck. A coolant system pressure check will show that coolant is leaking somewhere - so if not an external leak it has to be leaking somewhere inside the engine or possibly (out of sight) in the heater matrix inside the car. As coolant is getting into your engine oil... well, that seems to confirm the coolant is leaking inside the engine, my money is on a head gasket failure.

I wouldn't advise swapping in a 1600 engine. Road-testers, back in the day, expressed the view that the 1438 engine was 'sweeter' that later larger engines, it was over-square, has lighter crank and rods, so should spin up faster. As regards power output, successive larger engines were increasingly more strangled because of emission regs - the 1438 had 90 bhp (in Europe anyway), the U.S. 2 litre engine had iirc only 80 or 85 bhp. (Europe = 120bhp)

I did swap in some 1608 cc engines back in the day, as far as I can recall, the transmission bellhousing didn't have to be changed (so bolts will line up) but I can't recall if the flywheel and clutch were the same. One thing though, the 1608 engine is about 1/2 inch taller than the 1438cc unit and that can cause some issues especially with clearance between the hood and air cleaner, you'll also need the carb and probably the front exhaust downpipes, possibly also the 1608 exhaust manifold (the timing belts are different also). I've heard (no personal experience) that swapping in a later 1592, 1756 or 1995 cc engine is more problematic including possibly? having to change the transmission or at least it's bellhousing, also flywheel/clutch etc.

I see that Midwest-Bayless have some rebuilt cylinder heads ($1300 for a standard, $1650 for a modified/uprated head, o_O) but no rebuilt full engines. My recommendation would be to remove your cylinder head, see what you find and then take it from there (hopefully a light head skim, if needed, and a new gasket will fix the problem).

There are 'magic potions' that supposedly can fix minor cracks/leaks in a head or block (even Aston-Martin used to recommend the use of 'Bars Leaks' in their all-alloy engines) but I'd recommend changing the head gasket and checking things out first before trying such magical fixes.
 
Wow, thanks for all the thoughts. I was wondering too if the radiator could be part of the problem with an airlock but as you say that would not explain what appears to be coolant in the oil. The old radiator cracked along with the heater core. It found the aluminum radiator that is in it now at a local shop and it bolted right in so I said why not and I replaced the heater core from Midwest Bayless. It could be something still is wrong there. Not sure.

I replaced the head gasket, valve cover and cam cover gaskets a couple years back as the engine was leaking a good amount of oil when I got it. I had a machine shop look at the cylinder head and they cleaned it and said it was flat i replaced the water pump at the same time. I thought I got the gaskets on right but who knows. Most of the oil leaks stopped after that but I added the oil cooler mainly to add volume and the engine ran good and still does even now (but starts to overheat). I will probably remove the oil cooler when I open up the engine again to inspect as it maybe restricting air flow.

When I opened up the engine back then one cylinder seemed to have problems (see picture). I cleaned everything up but it may have overheated before I had it. The odometer has 83000 on it. Does not burn any oil.


I think I will take your advice and try to open it up again and see what I can find.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0645.jpeg
    IMG_0645.jpeg
    2.8 MB · Views: 25
  • IMG_0646.jpeg
    IMG_0646.jpeg
    2.6 MB · Views: 21
  • IMG_0651.jpeg
    IMG_0651.jpeg
    2.5 MB · Views: 23
Is the Oil cooler a good candidate for oil and coolant mixing?

Again odd that coolant enters oil, not oil enters coolant



For the months to come.. 😉

I used a product on a Ford that was mixing fluids, headgasket replaced . No improvement (and no obvious gasket defect)

The product was from the US,
(Texas IIRC..)

Called SealUp from cargo
It's essentially a suspension of silicates


You drain coolant, partfill with tap water
Add the @300ml pot

Fill with water to standard level


Let motor idle whilst watching coolant level cycle, around an hour of watching level rise through expansion,
Drop as fan runs, then rise again


As the Highs and Lows are stable (leaktight)

You kill the motor and dump the hot water (lower rad hose)


Heat cures the silica, your system should be sound


This car was used for another 6 years /60,000 miles all good

The guy who sold me the mix used it on his 1960's Austin mini, same result


Hoping you don't need it, but there you go 🤞
 
Is the Oil cooler a good candidate for oil and coolant mixing?

Again odd that coolant enters oil, not oil enters coolant



For the months to come.. 😉

I used a product on a Ford that was mixing fluids, headgasket replaced . No improvement (and no obvious gasket defect)

The product was from the US,
(Texas IIRC..)

Called SealUp from cargo
It's essentially a suspension of silicates
I think (from what I could see in the pic.) that the OP's oil cooler is a standard heat to air type without any connection to the engine cooling system.
Might it be possible that the coolant is getting into the oil return passages from the cylinder head into the sump (oil pan) i.e. directly into the oil (therefore is not prevented by oil pressure) possibly of where the head gasket may have failed, if it has indeed failed?

Possibly going off track here a little, but by way of example:-
I had this problem on an old Nissan diesel-engined van - the engine overheated, head gasket was replaced including a head skim, owner continued to have coolant getting into the oil (lots of it) and had tried various 'magic potions'. So he then came to me. A coolant system pressure check caused coolant to flood into the sump without the engine running. I removed the cylinder head to investigate (was thinking possible cracked block or similar) and discovered that on that engine there were mild steel sleeves pressed into the cylinder head to act as pushrod tubes - one of these had holed, the others were in an equally poor state. (the mild steel tubes would probably have lasted the life of the engine if the coolant had been renewed at the correct intervals, drivers of old vans, in my experience, often skip maintenance and only visit a workshop when something breaks/fails).

As you say, some of these leak sealing products do work, if used correctly, but best to check things out first, replace head gasket if failed, skim head if necessary, check rad for good flowrate, check thermostat is working correctly etc.

Back in the good old days, (i.e. before the era of magic potions to cure all ills), it used to be recommended to crack an egg or 2 into the rad and run the engine to seal a leaking rad - apparently, the egg would harden when it reached the point of leakage, another fix was to tip some ground pepper into the rad and run the engine with the same result. I'm sure there were other 'quick fixes' using commonly available substances.

A quick i/net search shows Bar's Leaks and K-Seal products, among others, are widely available in the U.S.
 
Wow, thanks for all the thoughts. I was wondering too if the radiator could be part of the problem with an airlock but as you say that would not explain what appears to be coolant in the oil. The old radiator cracked along with the heater core. It found the aluminum radiator that is in it now at a local shop and it bolted right in so I said why not and I replaced the heater core from Midwest Bayless. It could be something still is wrong there. Not sure.

I replaced the head gasket, valve cover and cam cover gaskets a couple years back as the engine was leaking a good amount of oil when I got it. I had a machine shop look at the cylinder head and they cleaned it and said it was flat i replaced the water pump at the same time. I thought I got the gaskets on right but who knows. Most of the oil leaks stopped after that but I added the oil cooler mainly to add volume and the engine ran good and still does even now (but starts to overheat). I will probably remove the oil cooler when I open up the engine again to inspect as it maybe restricting air flow.

When I opened up the engine back then one cylinder seemed to have problems (see picture). I cleaned everything up but it may have overheated before I had it. The odometer has 83000 on it. Does not burn any oil.


I think I will take your advice and try to open it up again and see what I can find.
1st things 1st. Did you re-torque the cylinder head after a few hundred miles? How much mileage have you covered since changing the head gasket?
Did you check the thermostat for correct operation? Have you still got the original radiator, maybe connect up a hosepipe and check if was flowing correctly or was possibly contributing to overheating. I'd be surprised if there was anything wrong with the original rad as the condition of the waterways in the head and block suggest that the car was well looked-after as regards coolant changes.

If you neglected to re-torque the cylinder head, I'd suggest doing it now, put some cheap new oil in the engine, re-install the original rad, check the thermostat and try running the engine again. You might get lucky.

I'm not a fan of aluminum radiators on older cars, especially fitting the crossflow type on cars designed to run with vertical flow rads. If you do intend to keep the al. rad, might I suggest you ensure it is rubber mounted (it doesn't seem to be at present), al. rads don't like being subjected to vibration or stress.
The original standard rads should work fine unless the engine had been modified significantly. Bleeding all the air out of a crossflow rad cooling system can be difficult - systems designed to have a crossflow rad as standard usually have bleed screws/points high up (higher than the rad) and a procedure to be followed - afaik, some modern cars now call for vacuum filling of the cooling system to avoid air-locks.

The method I used on Fiat 124s with the standard radiator is to fill the system through the rad filler neck, start the engine, allow to warm up, blip the throttle occasionally (you'll notice the level drops as the engine is revved up, this shows the water pump is working normally and helps to burp out any air locks) and keep the rad topped up, wait until the cooling fan has cut in and then out, top up the expansion tank to the max. mark ( coolant should then start to run from the expansion tank pipe into the rad), refit the rad cap, then the expansion tank cap. Only check the rad level when the engine is cool/cold - normally there's no need to remove the rad cap, just check/adjust the level at the expansion tank. The level should stay stable - up to the max mark when the engine is hot and never drop lower than the min. mark when the engine is cold - otherwise you have a leak somewhere.
I forgot to mention to check out the expansion tank... Inside there a metal tube with perforations/holes and with the top pinched close. Make sure that the holes are clear, otherwise coolant can't flow from the expansion tank to keep the rad topped up.... Also check the hose between the expansion tank and rad is clear.

Thanks for posting the pics. Whew, where do I start, especially after expanding them....

O.k., I've calmed down, removed my perfectionist hat and returned to the 'real' world (the one where nothing is perfect and even where a person has lots of money to spend, it's probably not advisable nor economically justified re vehicle resale value to do so).

I see an engine that's probably in decent useable condition. The damage to no. 3 piston top and combustion chamber was likely caused by some foreign object being ingested into that cylinder - possibly one of those little 5mm nyloc nuts that hold the air cleaner body onto the carb. or maybe a washer?
Such damage doesn't matter much, unless the piston top land (the part of the piston above the top ring) get distorted and crushes the top ring - this can only be ascertained by pulling the piston and I wouldn't advise this (you'll likely just open a can of worms by doing this, one thing leading to another). However, I would try as best as possible to smooth down any sharp lumps (using a scraper, file or rotary burr etc) to avoid any risk of hot spots in the combustion chamber which might result in pre-ignition.

If the engine isn't burning oil/ no excessive piston blow-by from the crankcase breather, then the bores and pistons are serviceable.

You said the machine shop cleaned and checked the head - I won't ask what they used (left lots of scratches and debris in holes) but I hope you thoroughly cleaned that head and all it's oil feed holes before refitting. Machine shops over here don't like skimming these Fiat cyl. heads - the inlet valve seats protrude into the head face, so the issue then becomes do they use a fly-cutter (normal for al. heads but not when fitted with hard metal valve seats) or a surface grinder (normal for iron heads but not aluminum ones). You can check both the top face of the cyl. block and the cyl head face for flatness using a decent steel rule if you don't have a precision straight edge - shine a light from the other side to see any warpage.

Top face of cylinder block - needs a thorough clean. I assume this pic was before reassembly, so would have been cleaned.

A word of advice- make sure all bolt holes in the block are cleaned out. I usually run a tap down each hole to ensure correct, unhindered torqueing to the correct figure and suction/blow any oil or coolant for the same reason.

Looking at the head gasket witness marks on the cylinder head, I'm suspicious whether the correct gasket was used, the fire rings (cylinder sealing rings) in the gasket between cyl's 2 and 3 seem very close. But I realise that the pic is when you removed the cyl head the last time but check any head gasket that you do intend to use against both the head and block as there have been variations. (e.g. iirc, the bore spacings were different on later engines).

Don't forget to check the spark plug hole threads - this is an ideal time to repair any damaged ones by Helicoiling or similar (beats having to do one in situ, especially the no. 4 one).
 
Last edited:
This is great. Thanks so much. I did re- torque the bolts after a few months but the head gasket has less than 500 miles on it as the car has had many issues over the last two years to keep it from being driven.

I think I will check the radiator for flow issues although I did follow what you outlined. I also think I need to take the head off again and see if I can see an issue.
 
Further to my above post #12, para 4, on bleeding Fiat 124 cooling systems, I happened to be perusing the Vick Auto Sports website and came across a 'Coolant Flush Kit' for burping air when filling cooling systems.


This site also gives a link to useful advice on avoiding airlocks/problems when filling cooling systems. They also recommend the use of crossflow-type aluminum radiators and provide a link to support this advice.
 
I'm a plumber/heating engineer and recently I've used miracle seal to fix leaks on two heating systems (well not actually fix the leaks it's a bodge) and it appears to work really well, it's also recommended for engine/coolant leak issues too.

Might be worth a try it only costs £10 per 250mls not sure if you can buy it in the US but you could probably buy it from ebay uk and pay for shipping.


 
I got the head off. The head gasket was fully intact so that does not seem to be the problem. I head on first inspection looks ok but I have not examined the block yet. It is clear coolant is leaking somewhere into the oil as the new oil I replaced is already green.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_7318.jpeg
    IMG_7318.jpeg
    2.6 MB · Views: 15
  • IMG_7317.jpeg
    IMG_7317.jpeg
    3.1 MB · Views: 13
Well I have done some inspection of the block with the head off. With the oil drained out and the oil pan plug out if I put coolant in the radiator, coolant runs out of the oil pan drain plug. So to me that says the block is cracked. Any other verdicts?
 
Well I have done some inspection of the block with the head off. With the oil drained out and the oil pan plug out if I put coolant in the radiator, coolant runs out of the oil pan drain plug. So to me that says the block is cracked. Any other verdicts?
Sounds about right. Reminds me about the old Ford tractors 4600 etc that used to crack blocks, no 1 cylinder behind the water pump or at the bottom of cylinder bores where they join were favourite places . We used wonder weld on a David Brown and that lasted several years until it had a coolant change but I think you would be best looking for a secondhand engine.
 
Back
Top