Styling Probably already done to death already, but about the Sabelt seats...

[mj2k]

I'd love to do this as a poll, but it doesn't really fit in as a general Fiat poll since I'm sure Ducato owners really would feel Sabelt seats would be a slightly silly mod for their vehicles So I'll do it as a general question. And no, @vexorg they will not make my car spontaneously burst into flames, get possessed by Satan or result in several million penguins getting constipation, so please no silly comments

Now then, I absolutely love the 'natural leather' (tan to everyone else) interior in my Abarth, it reminds me of the gorgeous (but hopelessly impractical / unreliable) 916 GTV we owned years ago, which was also black with tan leather:

However, the car's current interior does have one big disadvantage - my other half, who's rather tall, hits her head on the roof when she sits in the car (mine's got the sunroof). Also, as I discovered, the standard front seats are probably the second heaviest bit of the car, after the engine / gearbox. So I've been weighing up various ways to fix this, and came up with the below shortlist (other half staying at home isn't an option, nor is finding a shorter partner):

a) Fit a LHD adjustable driver's seat base to the passenger's seat so the passenger seat can be height adjusted like the driver's one. Big advantages - looks stay the same, airbags remain intact (normally I'm not a big fan of seat airbags but they seem a very sensible idea on a car as tiny as the Abarth), theoretically a cheap, simple fix. Big disadvantages - near-impossible to find a LHD driver's seat in the UK and nobody will ship one to me from the EU, and will be even heavier than the standard seats.

b) Fit 'natural leather' front Sabelts. Big advantages - will save some weight (but nobody actually seems to know how much!), if fitted with lowering rails will take the passenger's seat down even further, which is good both for my other half, and for lowering the car's roll centre vs the teeteringly-tall standard seats. Big disadvantages - hideously expensive, no airbags, some people think they're uncomfortable on long journeys (they wouldn't really help me to take corners faster tbh, I find the standard Abarth seats perfect for the job), steal even more of the already-limited legroom in the back, tan leather ones are f-ugly!

c) Fit a full black Sabelt interior. Big advantages - if I fit the carbon fibre version it'll be the lightest standard interior (and as I recently discovered with all seats except the driver's removed, the Abarth thrives on having a lightweight interior), otherwise as option b. Big disadvantages - as option b) but much better looking. However I'll lose that Alfa nostalgia and will a black car with a black interior be too much? Will I be able to see it in the dark? Will I need to dress like a ninja so I don't clash with it?

d) Alter the seat runners so my other half can sit further back, and remove the rear seats. Advantages (no big ones for me) - it'd allow my other half to get comfy even with the standard seats. Big disadvantages - no rear seats (this would be an issue for me), weight saving not that great (seat base weighs next to nothing, seat backs weigh under 10kg per side), and removing more weight from the already underweight back end seems a bad idea on a road car to me.

e) Fit some aftermarket Recaros Sportster CSs. Big advantages - cheaper, lighter and more comfy than the Sabelts. Big disadvantages - will rob even more rear leg room making the rear seats even more unusable than the Alfa's, look big and clumsy in a 500, no airbags once again, and may fall foul of the forthcoming 'anti tampering' rules (if they ever get past parliament)

Any thoughts except "You're dooomed, dooomed!" gratefully appreciated...

 

[chris3234]

One thing to remember if you car seats with airbags in fitting any without airbags is officially a MOT failure
That being an arbath it's Will probably still pass as they do have versions without from the factor

 

[mj2k]

One thing to remember if you car seats with airbags in fitting any without airbags is officially a MOT failure
That being an arbath it's Will probably still pass as they do have versions without from the factor

Indeed, as we mentioned in another thread Abarths will be fine with Sabelts but a 1.2 Pop could be in trouble since they weren't an option.

Recaros could potentially be more iffy in any 500 depending on the MOT inspector, but anyone fitting them, Sabelt or not, needs to know what they're doing since an airbag light or butchered airbag wiring is an MOT fail regardless.

For me it's more the safety than the legality though, in most cars they're just an ineffective poor man's alternative to curtain airbags and the 500 has proper curtain bags, which is great in a car this size. However you are rather close to the door in a 500 so in a harder side impact they may actually do some good and cushion you a little

 

[RedAbarthMTA]

Now, don't shoot me down in flames but have you considered using a drivers seat base affixed to your existing passenger seat? Should be possibe I would have thought with a little ingenuity, the height adjust would be on the outside though so 'might' hit the door card? Club500 often have bases for sale.

 

[mj2k]

Now, don't shoot me down in flames but have you considered using a drivers seat base affixed to your existing passenger seat? Should be possibe I would have thought with a little ingenuity, the height adjust would be on the outside though so 'might' hit the door card? Club500 often have bases for sale.

Good thought, but then the seat belt mount would be on the wrong side too, and though I'm reasonable at welding I wouldn't trust my skills for moving the entire mount from one side to the other

 

[RedAbarthMTA]

Good point, look here this implies they are available separately so should be replacable ??

 

[mj2k]

Good point, look here this implies they are available separately so should be replacable ??

Once again it's in my collection of pre-xmas 'missing' photos, but the captive nut the seatbelt mount bolts into is part of the side bar which the seat adjustment mechanism is attached to.

One other option which I found someone in the USA 500 site has done would be to get another standard 500 passenger seat, cut the tilt / slide mechanism out and just move the mount holes lower, but that'd look a bit odd since then the passenger's seat would be lower in the car than the driver's, and I quite like my driving position (typically Italian) so wouldn't want to cut the driver's side too.

I'm semi-tempted to get a set of old Alfa 75 Recaros down from the loft (quite a faff after xmas over-indulgence ) to see how different they are mount-wise, but they'd be a fail on most of my requirements since though they're quite nice looking seats they're heavyish, the wrong colour and have no airbags:

Oh, and have no tilt mechanism either, so strike that one off the list; don't really want any potential rear seat passengers needing to climb in through the tailgate

 

[mj2k]

Heh, okaaay, I did some research through the eper (I'm not allowed to work on the car over xmas so decided to do some research instead) and found some quite surprising things about the weights of various components:

Note - I have made some assumptions here in terms of the weights of plastic trim covers and cabling being negligible, and I've also assumed the weights of components in the eper are accurate.

Firstly, components you can't change on a road car (but some serious weight saving could be done with carbon fibre on a track):
2x door frame 39.2kg
bonnet 10.5kg
tailgate 9.4kg

Some where carbon fibre makes very little difference:
Front bumper 4.6kg approx
Rear bumper/splitter 3.4kg approx

Some interior bits where your choice of trim level makes a weight difference:
Parcel shelf
plain 450g
turismo 1040g
competizione 660g
Leave it out 0g

Carpet
plain 3430g
comp, turismo 4120g

Rear Seat
rear seat base
frame 976g
padding 1700g
cover (plain black) 600
cover (leather) 1010
cover (alcantara) 745
total (plain) 3276
total (leather) 3686
total (alcantara) 3421

2 piece rear seat back
left frame 4700
right frame 5600
crossrail 3267
left padding 800
right padding 837
left cover (plain black) 600
right cover (plain black) 600
left cover (leather) 690
right cover (leather) 680
left cover (alcantara) 780
right cover (alcantara) 1140
total (plain) 16404
total (leather) 16574
total (alcantara) 17124

1 piece rear seat back
frame 9500
crossrail 2270
padding 1100
cover (plain black) 420
total (plain) 13290

And now for the main event, the front seats:

Standard Abarth front seats
Back 4700
base 1400
top padding 2800
base padding 2100
airbag 420 (surprisingly little!)
slider 6900
slider (with adj) 8510
base cover (plain) 592
base cover (leather) 600
back cover (plain) 600
back cover (leather) 1106
seat (non-adj plain) 19512
seat (adj plain) 21122
seat (non-adj leather) 20026
seat (adj leather) 21636

Sabelt
back 4449
base 1655
Frame 2330
hinge 6211
hinge 1930
top padding 1270
base padding 800
slider 1800
slider 2100
crossrail 705
base cover (plain) 530
base cover (leather) 542
back cover (plain) 487
back cover (leather) 688
total (plain) 21267 (yes, you read that right, more than a non-adjustable normal seat!)
total (leather) 21480

Results:

• Swapping to Sabelts adds approx 2.3kg to weight!!! (that was unexpected)
• Airbags only weigh 840g for both sides (equally unexpected)
• Adding a 2nd adjuster mech adds 1.6kg
• Swapping to a plain Abarth interior with a single piece back from a leather Turismo (or alcantara) interior plus dropping the parcel shelf saves approx 7kg
• Deleting the rear seats saves a maximum of 20.5kg (alcantara).

Conclusion:

• If you're serious about weight saving fit a plain black interior from a base model Abarth 500; that'll save you 7kg and you'll still keep the rear seats (albeit not split)
• Deleting the rear seats saves you nowhere near as much weight as you'd expect - a maximum of 21.5kg (or just 16.5kg if you've got the plain single piece rear seat)
• Both seat airbags weigh less than a turismo's parcel shelf
• Sabelts are a waste of money.

So, that's Sabelts off my 'must-get' list then - no airbags, not as comfy on longer journeys, and weigh more than the standard Abarth seats

Back to Plan A then...

 

[A3jeroen]

I'm on the right side of the channel. Not sure if I could find a adjustable seatbase, but if I could help?

gr J

 

[mj2k]

I'm on the right side of the channel. Not sure if I could find a adjustable seatbase, but if I could help?

gr J

Thanks, that'd be brilliant if you can

I'd only need the seat base which shouldn't be too tricky to send but a whole seat would do. I'll have a go at taking one of the seats apart after xmas to see how tricky it'd be to get a seat base into a shippable state.

 

[mj2k]

I'm also semi-tempted to try an experiment with some old 916 gtv seats if I can find a decent set cheap - they definitely give you a low seating position and given my nostalgia for the gorgeous, horrible beast why not go the whole hog and actually fit Alfa seats?

Only issues would be modifying the seat rails to fit (they're a Mk1 Tipo style mount) and trying to get the airbags to work (this could be painful if it goes wrong) so that definitely would not be a simple (or maybe sensible) mod, and they may look totally ridiculous in an Abarth.

 

[mj2k]

Did some quick measurements using my bathroom scales and looks like Fiat were pretty much bang on the money with the weights...

Rear seat back - 8.3+8.6=16.9 (calculated 16.6)
Rear seat base - 3.1 (calculated 3.6)
Front adjustable seat - 22.6 (calculated 21.6 excluding trim, cables and seatbelt hitch)

Also, another interesting one - not the right seat (I bought it for experimentation) but an Alfa 159 tan seat is 23.9kg, just about fits, gives my other half more headroom besides having more adjustments, and looks like this (would need a re-dye):

So I'm definitely going to pursue that GTV seat idea a bit more, looks like it might 'have legs' so to speak.

 

[mj2k]

Heh, started dismantling that Alfa seat to see if I could modify the seat base, change the rails or whatever to fit a Fiat, and it's a typical piece of Alfa design. Beautifully made out of the highest quality leather, in a pointlessly over-complicated way. Most car seats have the back bolted to the base so you can fit different combinations of backs / bases for luxury, sports, 3 door or 5 door, LHD or RHD. Not this one - the back and base are all one unit with a mass of carefully folded / welded metal around the seat back hinge, and the rails are attached purely to the base. And the seat back fabric / cushions, which on most cars are held on with simple clips which come apart with a push and a pull in the right direction, are present on this Alfa seat but so hidden high up inside the seat back they can only have been assembled by trained spiders when the seat was built, unless the leather was stitched over the seat cushions once assembled.

Most complicated seat I've ever dismantled (and I've done a few) and it looks like there's very little chance I'll be able to hybridize any of the seat mech, but might as well waste another hour or so getting the rest of the seat back off so I can assess the frame properly to see if it's suitable for the Abarth or not before risking a more significant spend on proper GTV seats.

 

[mj2k]

Checked out the seat frame with the cushions removed - there's definitely no way of removing the back without using an angle grinder, and the base is about 2cm too wide to fit in the 500 properly. So although it's involved the destruction of a nice Alfa 159 seat (might put it back together though) it's saved me spending a fortune on decent GTV seats.

So, next option is Sparco R100s given the Sabelts are too darned heavy / expensive and the Recaros are too ungainly. Watch this space...

 

[A3jeroen]

Still lookong for a seatbase with height adjustion, but it seems like you can't separate the seat from the base so it'd have to be an Abarth seat to begin with. Difficult to find one. I'm only offered complete driverside seats (LHD) at what I find silly prices.

gr J

 

[mj2k]

Still lookong for a seatbase with height adjustion, but it seems like you can't separate the seat from the base so it'd have to be an Abarth seat to begin with. Difficult to find one. I'm only offered complete driverside seats (LHD) at what I find silly prices.

gr J

Thanks for having a good look anyway, think I'll end up going for the Sparco option seeing as pretty much everything else looks like a dead end at the mo.

 

[mj2k]

Managed to find some 2nd hand Sparco R100s on Ebay, currently fitted to a Citroen C2. No doubt I'll need to get the Fiat 500 seat bases if I can't easily modify the Citroen ones, but reputedly the Sparco weighs 13kg without base so I should get a pretty reasonable weight saving besides giving my other half enough head room. Assuming I like them it'll then mean I need to swap the rest of the interior for black leather from a standard 500 though, so my Abarth might look like a biker's boudoir by the end of this.

Only other trouble might be with me - the Sparcos are very low slung and I've got quite a short torso (which is why the Fiat / Alfa driving position seems nice to me), and it'd be embarrassing if I need a cushion to look out over the bonnet with the Sparco bases, I'll need to start calling my other half Snow White for a start

 

[A3jeroen]

And where would you fit the other 6 dwarfs?...

gr J

 

[mj2k]

And where would you fit the other 6 dwarfs?...

gr J

2 should fit in the back fine (it's who the rear seats were designed for after all) and the other 4 would have to get their own 500

 

[mj2k]

And another couple of interesting ones according to my bathroom scales:

Standard Fiat 500 height adjustable seat with headrest (leather, GQ edition; a base spec would weigh even less) - 21.8kg

Sparco r100 vinyl without base (which will add a fair bit) - 14.1kg

Interesting a standard 500 seat is the lightest seat out of the Fiat / Sabelt seats...!

Just goes to show you're paying for the looks rather than the weight saving with the sportier seats; for a track you'd go for a carbon fibre fixed seat shell and dump the adjustable seat, whether Abarth or Sabelt - more rigid and considerably lighter.