Technical One for the turbo owners?

[J333EVO]

I have a strange problem with my turbo Cinq that I think I know why, but just want a few 2nd opinions.

The Cinqs run a MAP sensor that of course would be triggered by positive boost and cut/limit the fuel to the injector. To get round this Van Aaken fit whats known as a BDL (boost de-limiter) or on earlier Cinqs a SuperChips ABC device which is same thing, it is otherwise known as a FCD (fuel cut defender) and made by companies like HKS, Turbo Smart and Thor Racing which are all adjustable, the VAD BDL is fixed.

There was something wrong with my BDL as it was showing over 4.5V to the ECU which it doesn't like i.e positive boost, so ordered a new one from VAD which I recieved and fitted but although according to VAD instructions it functions correctly the ECU still sees positive boost, and injector light comes on on the dash and car stutters, drives rubbsih, that is unless you press the accelerator to the floor and watch the diods on the MF2 controller (i have a clear cover on it so I can watch what its doing) to 2nd injector come on and car drives fine, so I end up driving either completly off boost or full chat as there is no in between as car runs like a dog in the middle bit.

Just want to know what other turbo owners have on there car one of Van Aakens BDL or this SuperCHips ABC device or even something else, as I may have the chance to use the Superchips one as an experiment to compare the cars performance against the BDL. (just incase you don't know where it is you will normally find it somewhere near the MAP sensor as its cuts in to the red/yellow stripy wire which goes to pin 32 I think in the ECU)

Aaron.

 

[GhostWKD]

i'll get a pic of mine for you tomorrow for you aaron (not a clue what it is, only that i think its a small black box velcro'd to side of ecu and wires to it coming out of loom lol), also i need to phone van aaken to kick up stink on monday re my manifold, want me to ask about a BDL for you while im there or you cool?

 

[J333EVO]

Yeah thanks mate, i think yours has the SuperChips one same as Emmas, I have the email of soem guy at Van Aaken cos I already complained at them sending no instructions for it, I just want to try and eliminate it first before I send it back and ask for my money back.

I think the problem may be that the Van Aaken one is fixed and not adjustable whereas the SuperCHips (who were none to friendly when I asked them about it cos they don't list it on there site) one and others are all adjustable.

Thor Racing http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/VFCC-00100006.asp
Turbo Smart http://www.turbosmart.com.au/fuel_cut_defenders.htm http://www.kcshop.co.uk/product_inf...69&PHPSESSID=a768e40524b2057ba99fcea405b49bc3
HKS http://www.j-w-racing.co.uk/acatalog/mainElectronics.html

Aaron.

 

[GhostWKD]

Ah right fair enough buddy, i've dealt with Alex at VA so far (whats the chances hey lol) who seems cool from what i know of him, although they did mess up my manifold but think pete said was one of the snowflake things with bolts different layouts still will see how i do on monday lol

Will get pics and have better look also for you tomorrow buddy, cinq is poorly pretty much in bits in garage anyway lol

 

[custard]

i'll have a looksie today.dont remeber seeing anything except this?

 

[Firewarrior]

Have you tried speaking to john in the workshop?
He has always been more than helpful with mine. He might have a few suggestions.
Apart from that mate im not too sure, i got the clear cover on mf2 sorted now!!!
lol knight rider style!

 

[J333EVO]

Yeah Custard thats the Van Aaken BDL, your must be a slightly later conversion cos teh earlier ones seem to have the Super Chips ABC device.

Yeah Sam I think its his email I have, so I may do that.

 

[custard]

well thats where theres confusion since mine being the demo cinq you would expect it to be the superchips one.mine was bought from new by VAD

 

[HP]

duff lambda sensor, running weak until the 2nd injector kicks in?

 

[Randomman]

duff lambda sensor, running weak until the 2nd injector kicks in?

Thats an excellent suggestion, I'm not a turbo owner myself, but my step dad is and he suggested fueling feedback loop. Or something like that.

Makes sense too

 

[J333EVO]

duff lambda sensor, running weak until the 2nd injector kicks in?

I was thinking it may be that as well, I do have a spare Lambda on the exhaust that came off the Imola somewhere, so i'll try swapping that over and eliminate the fault being the BDL.

Aaron.

 

[arc]

can u not just measure the voltage coming out the bdl, and if goes over 4.5v then u know that is def the problem?

 

[J333EVO]

can u not just measure the voltage coming out the bdl, and if goes over 4.5v then u know that is def the problem?

Yeah I have the instruction from Van Aaken in PDF form which tell you how to set it up, which may be of use to you Arc for future ref as it tells you which pins to use in the ECU, and you wire it in and turn ignition on, but not start engine, it reads 4.5V, you then run car and get load on it and again it seems to do what its meant to i.e. 4.5V so it may be that the Lambda has gone I just had a thought in back of my mind that it might be that though it did seem to come at same time as MF2 & BDL burning out, and seemed to be linked to the MAP sensor, but that was maybe just throwing me off the trail.

I'll try the other Lambda and see what happens.

Cheers all,

Aaron.

 

[Asteris]

As this error hits my turbo too from time to time, I did a little search, in order to track the problem.

First of all, download the following datasheet, of the Magneti Marelli MAP sensors.

Data sheet

Open the pdf in order to understand the way this sensor works. Our NA cars type is PRT 03/04. The sensor gives a variable voltage to the ECU, which linearly ranges from 0.25V at 17 kPa (heavy decelaration-underpressure) to 4.75V at 105 kPa (full throttle in NA cars + a little bit more).

What is commonly mistaken, is that the standard atmospheric pressure is 1 bar or 100 kPa at sea level. Wrong. Due to barometric variations (weather in common), the pressure at sea level can take values from 95 to 105 kPa (0.95 to 1.05 bar). Now you just realized why the NA MAP sensors have a range upto 105 and not 100 kPa. As a matter of fact, atmospheric pressure can be even lower, if you are at a higher altitude.

Second to that, all modern ECUs, have the capability to compensate for this variation, so it can accurately calculate the air volume (oxygen molecules in fact). This is taking place, exactly the time you turn on the key and before you start up the engine. The ECU gets the barometric pressure from the MAP sensor and THIS is the top limit the ECU expects to see from now on, for the rest of this engine run.

Here is an example:

What happens to an NA car: The atmospheric pressure today is 97 kPa. This is 4.34V for the ECU. This is the top limit for this run. An NA car, will never manage to pass this value, so no problem till now.

What happens to us, turbo owners: We installed a turbo. We get let's say 1.4 bar (140kPa) of top absolute pressure (0.4 overpressure as its commonly called). The MAP sensor is sensing this pressure and gives its top output of 4.75V. Our FCD limits the voltage at the set point, which probably is 4.5V. ECU waits to see no more than 4.34V at this point. The result is the above reported error, as the FCD kicks in too late.

Solution: Set the FCD to limit MAP voltage at the lowest value expected at your area/altitude. If near the sea, probably 95 kPa (4.23V) is the lowest you will get. ECU probably won't feel the difference, as at full throttle, ECU injects based more on the TPS sensor, than MAP.

If the extra controller had barometric compensation too, it should start injecting fuel from lower pressures, ie 4.34V (97 kPa) and not 4.5V (100 kPa) on the above example and everything should be ideal. I don't know any EFI controllers that do that, might be wrong though.

The other way around, is not that of a trouble. If the barometric pressure is more than 100 kPa, no error will show, you will get a smooth transition from under to over pressure.

There it is, hope I helped a bit. Cheers.

 

[J333EVO]

Feek me, I fitted the new Lambda no feeking diff, got me well and truely stumped, I'll try the SuperChips FCD see if its any diff, if not I'm going to throw it in the river Clyde when I'm home in Glasgow so its never found, lol

 

[Asteris]

Feek me, I fitted the new Lambda no feeking diff, got me well and truely stumped, I'll try the SuperChips FCD see if its any diff, if not I'm going to throw it in the river Clyde when I'm home in Glasgow so its never found, lol

The difference is in the voltage setting. You will have to make sure you get an adjustable FCD, so you can set it to 4.25V. I set mine at 4.4V and still does it once in a while, so i'll have to adjust it even lower...

 

[J333EVO]

The difference is in the voltage setting. You will have to make sure you get an adjustable FCD, so you can set it to 4.25V. I set mine at 4.4V and still does it once in a while, so i'll have to adjust it even lower...

yeah i'm goign to try a superchips adjustable one this weekend hopefully and see if it makes any difference cos its doing my nut in! if it is tat then I will purchase the Thor Racing one i think as it seems good value compared to teh HKS or TurboSystems one.

Aaron.

 

[J333EVO]

Well at last I have a car that runs exactly as it should.

I fitted the Super Chips ABC device (fuel cut defender) and the injector light comes on with ignition, and then goes off after 20 odd secs, and it never returns! The car drives beautifully, the way it should with no hesitation on going from - to + boost, it drives so smoothly its untrue compared to what it was before, and to top it off feels much much quicker, with a nice dose of torque steer in all gears and almost breaking traction in 3rd gear, never mind 1st and 2nd and that’s on 14's, would be hellish with 13's on it.

Now need to go back to Van Aaken and say I wish my money back for the BDL that they gave me as it obviously doesn't work and use the money for either a Thor Racing or HKS one instead and return the Super Chips to its rightful owner as Super Chips were very unfriendly when I asked them about it telling me to go back to who ever did my engine conversion.

A very happy Aaron