Technical gearbox troubles

[dagdromer]

I could not help myself and bought yet another Panda. It was advertised local to me with in the description that it had some problems with the gearbox.

The seller stated that during a normal drive just at once they could not select any gears anymore. The gearbox seemed stuck. They got it recovered back home and when started there it drove without any problems. But they did not trust the car anymore and wanted to sell. I started the car and drove it back and forward on the sellers driveway without any problems. The price was right so I bought the car.

The drive home was way more challenging than I ever expected it to be. I've driven several cars with bad gearboxes but this one was the worse. It was only a 20 minute drive but 15 minutes of that are motorways. When I left the sellers driveway and I grabbed second gear a whining noise whining appeared. When going through the gears to enter the motorway they whining stayed and when grabbing 5th the clutch seemed to slip for a second before engaging with a bang.

So now and then when I hit a bump or hole in the road the whine would disappear but the most scary part was when I think the gearbox locked up. It felt like the whole car would lift the back end but before that actually happened it freed up again and drove without any new noises. It did that 3 times before I was at my exit. luckily my exit has a long off ramp that helps slowing down and gently trying to select a lower gear. It was not happy and gear changes where not smooth but manageable. Fourth and fifth where difficult to grab and when I finally made it home it would not go into reverse.

I left the car sitting for a good half hour before I decided to see if I could move it to a better spot, and to my surprise it grabbed reverse without any problems.
I checked the fluid in the gearbox, it is low but not empty, if you stick your pinky in it you will dip it in the oil. The oil is grayish and I think I see some flakes but I did not drain it yet as it needs to be moved before taking of the gearbox. I looked through the inspection hole on the top of the gearbox and at first glance there is plenty of material left on the clutch plate and it looked dry inside. Underneath the car there is evidence of oil leaking where the gearbox meets the engine but it is hard to determine if it is engine oil or gearbox. The valve cover gasket is leaking. Looking through one of the holes of the inspection plate (did not take that one off yet) the flywheel looks dry and clean.
It seemed that there was a lot of side to side movement and I suspected a bad gearbox mount, but after disassemble and reassemble it seemed all good and tight again. maybe it was not tightened correctly.

Now the big question what will be the problem? I can think of several things but I'm curious if there are more options.

- bad clutch / release bearing: The release bearing is whining and a bad finger on the pressure plate or a spring in the clutch is causing it to lock up so now and then.
- bad /wrongly adjusted gear selector cables. putting stress/tension on the gears causing them to whine and disengage so now and then.
- bad gearbox input bearing. lost a couple of bearing balls that are floating through the gearbox jamming it so now and then.

I like these kind of problems, doing some investigation, try to find cheap solutions to get it going again. That is the reason I bought the car. It has some other issues with keys and starting, but that is for another time. First get it driving again .

 

[Otterjack]

A little grey-ish-metallic shade in the gearbox oil is natural but the oil should keep its colour (there's no combustion and carbon residue to turn it black), I'd drain it as soon as possible just to check for metal or plastic residue (selector forks are plastic coated, and when they overheat it melts away).

I'd say the gearbox is overheating and this leads to the lockup/bad engagement, so this leads me to think low/bad oil or maybe as you suggest the control cables that keep a fork in forced contact with a selector (and then it overheats). Last and worst : seized bearings.

 

[koalar]

2wd or 4wd

Manual or dualogic

Whining noise, every gear ? Are you sure the whining is gearbox related

"when I hit a bump or hole in the road the whine would disappear" doesn't sound gearbox related

Does it alter with engine revs or road speed

Does it alter with clutch up or down

Fingers crossed it's just a release bearing, noise will alter clutch up or down

And gears selector cables for the difficult engagement

At the moment there's not enough information to come to any conclusion

You can try putting engine oil down the gear selector cables, gearbox end and see if the gear selection improves

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

My first move would be to drain the oil and see what comes out. It's a quick and simple thing to do and can be very revealing.

 

[dagdromer]

@koalar it is 2wd manual. the whine is in every gear and it goes with rpm speed. And it is gearbox related because it does not whine when the car is not moving and you rev the engine.

@Pugglt Auld Jock I agree that dropping the oil is the quick and simple. but I do not want to drop the oil at my house to find out the gearbox needs to come apart, because then I need to refill the gearbox just to take it the location where I will do the actual work. To me that is a waste of oil and money.

I was just curious based on described experience if you lot would have other suggestions on the possible cause.

I will keep you all updated on the progress of this.

 

[koalar]

@koalar it is 2wd manual. the whine is in every gear and it goes with rpm speed. And it is gearbox related because it does not whine when the car is not moving and you rev the engine.

2wd and manual makes things simpler

Doesn't whine when not moving hasn't eliminated the wheel bearing or brakes

While it's whining knock it into neutral lift the clutch and rev the engine

If there is no change in sound it's got to somewhere from the differential to to wheels

I think, I am typing this while talking to someone so can't think properly, no doubt someone will correct me if wrong

 

[koalar]

think the gearbox locked up. It felt like the whole car would lift the back end but before that actually happened it freed up again and drove without any new noises.

Yep something at the front is locking,

If it was the gearbox, I would expect further damage to be caused, for example two gears at the same time would cause catastrophic damage, a loose input ballbearing in the diff would sound like a bag of nails and damage the teeth

Wheel bearings do this, when the cage breaks up and the bits get trapped, if you lift each wheel up and rotate it, check for play and smooth rotation, but it will never freewheel as it's still connected to the diff via the driveshafts

 

[koalar]

I looked through the inspection hole on the top of the gearbox and at first glance there is plenty of material left on the clutch plate and it looked dry inside.

As well visual, rub your finger on the inside and see if it's wet on the inside

Underneath the car there is evidence of oil leaking where the gearbox meets the engine but it is hard to determine if it is engine oil or gearbox. .

I can't tell the difference any more, I opened a bottle of new gear and engine and sniff tested them, seemed close to identical to my nose

The bottom of the bellhousing is the lowest point so both engine and gearbox collect here

 

[dagdromer]

Finally I had some spare time and it was not raining so I could have a proper look at the car.

Even with the engine off it feels like it needs a bit too much pressure to go into gear. I checked the cables on the gearbox end and the one that moves the big lever (the bottom one) seems to have a little play where the steel rod inserts into the outer cable sleeve. On the other one there is no play and is a small white plastic visible.

When starting the car in neutral leaving the clutch up you can hear a slight whine, which can come from the input shaft or the release bearing just touching the pressure plate. When you press the clutch the sound goes away.

When putting it in first or reverse gear and slowly letting the clutch out without any throttle it slips first with a whine than 9 out of 10 times you feel and hear a bang/kloink before it fully grips and you take off. The release/engage moment sits very high on the pedal. This is a mechanical clutch adjustment but looking at the cable it adjusted properly.

When putting it in third gear, foot on the brake and letting the clutch out, it slips, bangs and then shuts down the engine. So the clutch does bite enough.

I was really tempted the drop the gearbox oil but I could not find a clear and clean container that can hold up to 1,5 liters of liquid.

Next step is moving it to another location so I can take the gearbox off and go from there.

When taking out the gearbox do you leave the cups in the gearbox or do you pop them out still attached to the driveshafts? In the past I left them in, but if I want to split the gearbox I assume that they need to come out anyway.

 

[koalar]

Manually select the gear with the engine

switched off

Switch the engine on and slowly release the clutch

Is there still a whine and crunch

 

[dagdromer]

Against better judgement I drained the oil this evening. Does not looks promising. The big pieces do look a lot like gear teeth. So gearbox is coming apart.

 

[koalar]

Did you put your finger inside the inspection hole

Is it wet with oil

Looks like part of the bellhousing is smashed

 

[Otterjack]

Ouch !
Same thing happened with my brother’s grande punto, clutch oil seal died and he did not notice at all, bearings seized and every gear/synchro/fork wore out until it started making a horrible grinding noise … I had to fit the car with a spare panda gearbox I had lying in the garage but the final drive is much higher and the poor gp struggles a bit but at least is running again.

 

[dagdromer]

@koalar i drained the box using the lower plug, the chunks came with the oil in the pan. The picture is showing the black drain pan, in a red funnel.

@Otterjack we will see what the damage is. I will take the box apart and go from there.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Damn, that looks pretty terminal. I'd be surprised if it'll be worth trying to repair that box. Sorry for you. Be interesting to see what you find when you drop the box but I suspect it's time to look for a good used box.

 

[koalar]

It's quite likely to be like this, here's mine

If it is it's no repairable at a reasonable cost

I fitted a £60 1.2 fiat 500

 

[dagdromer]

I think they are gear teeth and not from the housing. The chunks only have one edge that shows like it is broken off something. The other edges are smooth and the color of the material is the dark gray like the gears.

I hope to find a cheap box as most scrapyards here think they are made from gold.

 

[Otterjack]

Here in Italy a panda gearbox sits in the range of 100-400 euros - used and hopefully in good contidion inside
Scrapyards usually give a 1 month warranty just in case the used part turns out to be faulty.

@koalar - catastrofic bearing faliure ?

 

[koalar]

Here in Italy a panda gearbox sits in the range of 100-400 euro

I fitted a fiat 1.2 500 gearbox, around 52 mph at 2000 RPM in fifth, so not a million miles out

@koalar - catastrofic bearing faliure ?

Owner got rid of the car after the gearbox became noisy, following a clutch change, payed £300 for a 2010

Input bearing cage had failed,, dropped it's ball bearings into the gearbox, took some teeth out before one existing through the differential

I paid £60 for the gearbox £40 for the clutch, the oil was annoying there's no cheap alternatives, just under £10 per litre and you need two bottles, fitted a new input bearing and seals at the same time

Comes to around £150 to fix in the end

 

[Otterjack]

60£ (70€) it's a very good price for a gearbox ! Here we pay 70€ just for the clutch kit (Valeo/Luk).

My other car, a 1998 Lancia Y 1.1, had a similar story, got her for 300€ and a broken cockpit radiator flooding the car (8€ part and an evening of work). Still going strong after more 110k km, sadly the new ecologic rules state that such an old car can't enter city limits of Florence anymore so I finally switched to the Panda as daily driver and immediately fell in love with it