General Fuel additives...... a good thing?

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General Fuel additives...... a good thing?

Actually on start up the van was a bit smoky, but when I got going no smoke.

One of my first jobs involved getting a fleet of delivery vans started first thing each morning, back in the days when we squirted Easy Start in the air intake to get them running, and had to stall them to turn them off. That was smoky :eek:
 
One of my first jobs involved getting a fleet of delivery vans started first thing each morning, back in the days when we squirted Easy Start in the air intake to get them running, and had to stall them to turn them off. That was smoky :eek:
I think I told you all that when I first left "the big smoke" and returned to Edinburgh I worked in a small country garage about 10 miles south of the city. The boss made extra money by allowing GUS (Great Union Stores) to garage their delivery vans and lorries in the main workshop overnight. So, every morning, these vehicles had to be started up and driven outside to be parked in the street. This was the late '70's, no DPFs or catalytic converters and the standard method of starting on these old engines was to allow the pump to overfuel during cranking. So the first few revs after starting, the fuel mix was very very "rich". Then, as the revs picked up, the governor would take over and knock the fueling back to where it should be. The problem was though that for the first few power strokes the exhaust emitted enough smoke to rival a royal naval destroyer laying down a smoke screen! Thick, white, choking smoke. Made you cough and eyes stream with tears. Even after making a cup of tea the workshop still wasn't a nice place to work in for maybe a half hour or so. But it was "normal" so we didn't question it and just got down to work.

Thinking about that garage and about another recent thread about engine oil for a Punto where thickness was discussed, has reminded me of an incident involving our apprentice. This young lad was very enthusiastic and keen to learn so after a while the foreman put him on the lube bay - we had a separate lube bay. We, the mechanics, would do the service and repair tasks at our work stations and then, if required, the vehicle was driven round to the lube bay where it's engine oil and filter would be changed, gearbox and axle levels checked, grease points greased, tyre pressures and tyres checked etc. Unfortunately the lad had not, unforgivably, been properly instructed in the power operated machinery in the lube bay, At that time I think we had two grades of engine oil, two grades of transmission oil, a powered greaser, etc. The lad started in the bay after lunch and did 3 lube jobs that afternoon (I know it was 3 because I had to go and recover all 3 cars) Everything was fine that day. The customers paid their bills, collected their cars, and went home. First thing next morning, within minutes of each other, all three rang up reporting flat batteries! I tried jumping the first car with leads from our Land Rover recovery truck but the engine would only just turn over slowly, just like a flat battery. Oh dear, probably the starter, never mind we'll bump it. Only it wouldn't - still wouldn't turn over fast enough. So recover to garage workshop. Repeat story for the other two. In the workshop we tried new starters, batteries, checked earth leads and so on. But not one of the three would turn over at any speed at all! Then the foreman came over and pulled the dipsticks. You've probably already guessed? The laddy had filled the sumps with rear axle oil because he didn't understand about the selector on the powered oiler! Actually they were separate for engine oils and gearbox oils, but he still hadn't "clocked" it. With oil drained and refilled with 20/50 they all trundled back happily to their owners. The boss refused to discuss it so we don't know what he told them!

We spent some time at the tea break trying to work out how they'd been able to drive the vehicles home the night before and we concluded that the engines were hot after the workshop tuneups etc so probably the engine heat managed to thin the oil enough to let the engine run but after a night outside in the Scottish weather it just got too thick! I was very impressed with the boss who just had a quiet wee talk with the lad and had him back in the bay, with a skilled man, the next day. Don't think he was so lenient with the shop foreman though, who was best avoided for the rest of the week! Although they managed to drive them home I bet the cars behaved like slugs?
 
Just to say regarding my wee diesel van, after the 2stroke oil, it stared very easily no matter the weather conditions. 1.3 turbo, quite a nippy thing when I put it through it’s paces. Stop/start driving, but I kept it clean and not soothed up too badly by a regular road tune up...:D
 
I don't think it is relevant at all to this thread, but was very interesting, and enjoyable to watch.
It is indeed a very entertaining watch PB and I too enjoyed watching it.

I found it particularly relevant having worked with my gardening squad for the last 15 years of my working life. Our machinery ranged from a large ride on through large and small walk behinds to a scarifier and selection of leaf blowers, hedge cutter and strimmers, all with various types of IC engine. The horticultural machinery "world" seems quite obsessed with fuel stabilizers. When buying spares towards the end of the season, often service items to "winterize" the machines and ready them for the winter layup, They would always try to sell me a fuel stabilizer. Briggs and Stratton, the engine maker, seem particularly keen and even sell their own branded product.

I resisted and never had any problems - still don't to this day - however our fuels were ethanol free at that time and even latterly now only contain 5% ethanol (That's what the E5 on your petrol pump stands for) whereas the Yanks have had E10 for years and even more in some cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_the_United_States

Ethanol seems to be the "baddie" so maybe that's why I've never had a problem but I see E10 is coming! I believe it's to be the standard "brew" by 2021? That's going to be fun for all the older cars because the ethanol rots things like rubber fuel hoses and petrol pump diaphragms and lots more. I've seen it said that anything older than about 2010, maybe 2012 could well be at risk?
 
Ethanol seems to be the "baddie" so maybe that's why I've never had a problem but I see E10 is coming! I believe it's to be the standard "brew" by 2021? That's going to be fun for all the older cars because the ethanol rots things like rubber fuel hoses and petrol pump diaphragms and lots more. I've seen it said that anything older than about 2010, maybe 2012 could well be at risk?

I'ver read that Premium fuels will remain at 5% for the foreseeable future, not too great a financial burden running older low use vehicles.

When E10 was first mooted, I found somewhere that it will probably not affect most Euro4 cars or newer, which will be most of the daily use cars, as my 2006 Panda is Euro4.
With fuel injection, and an in-tank pump, it is probably only the hoses to be checked, so perhaps everything from 1993 will be less of a risk.
 
I'ver read that Premium fuels will remain at 5% for the foreseeable future, not too great a financial burden running older low use vehicles.

When E10 was first mooted, I found somewhere that it will probably not affect most Euro4 cars or newer, which will be most of the daily use cars, as my 2006 Panda is Euro4.
With fuel injection, and an in-tank pump, it is probably only the hoses to be checked, so perhaps everything from 1993 will be less of a risk.

Was asked by someone about their 1998 Micra. Details for this car are vague, but after a bit of research, it appears that really only the fuel hoses are a potential risk. Not a big deal, unless they have specific ends on them, which is unlikley for most cars.
 
With my interest in elderly machinery, in particular horticultural and motor cycles, I'm thinking many of their engines fuel systems will be incompatible. Small Horticultural engines often have at least one rubberized diaphragm to pump fuel and other rubber parts like O rings and needle valve seats. I think B&S engines have been ethanol compliant for quite some time now but I don't know about some of their older engines with points type ignition or other makes like the defunct Tecumseh and others - I have a cast iron bore Tecumseh in my mower which is now about 30 years old and still refusing to "die". I think I'll just play safe and run them all on premium grade if indeed it really is to be E5? Hopefully it'll still have info on the pump?
 
Getting back to aftermarket fuel additives specifically, I came across a very interesting feature the other day - I'm trying to find it again so I can post a link - about concentrated fuel system cleaners (the type where you empty the whole can into about half a tank of fuel to thoroughly clear the system of lacquers and the like). This feature was highlighting something I'd not been aware of which is that excessive use of these products can destroy the small fuel filters incorporated in Direct Injection system injectors. Apparently the nylon/plastic type filter screen breaks down and then obstructs fuel flow to the nozzle.

I think you'd probably have to excessively overdose to get this happening, but, as I'm using the Archoil AR6900-P MAX in both the Ibiza and the Panda I'm trying to find out more from my supplier - https://www.powerenhancer.co.uk/brands/archoil.html - who I've found very helpful in the past and I'll pass on anything useful which might emerge.
 
@Pugglt Auld Jock Is this stuff s Archoil AR6400-P Max PEA Professional Petrol Injector, Turbo, Cat Cleaner actually any good at cleaning turbos egr system. does it really get past combustion. Is there any doccumentation on its effectiveness. I am thinking specificaly about using with twin egr ducatos.
 
I use BP Ultimate in my 53 Reg Panda (156k). I have been told several times that it is a waste of money. When I got the car 7 years ago every MOT it was high on the emissions readings.

Ever since I started using Ultimate the emissions are low. It might not make any difference to some cars but it works for me. I think the additives are keeping the injectors clean
There is a difference, I also feel its positive now its settled down. Shell Ultra caused a load of issues and I think it was Cheshire Police that sorted them out with legal action. I would use additives after my local VW specialist advised it due to the VW diesel turbo issues c2004. He has seen enough before and after jobs to be definitively able to advise. Redex or Wynns only for me as these at least wont do harm. The decoke treatments also do some good. Wheeler dealers did an XK8 if I remember, to great effect. There is always a risk but sometimes its worth a go. I used Wynns diesel clean in Renaults, VW and my Bravo for well over 250k. No blocked egrs or failed. I stopped using it in tge Bravo until the egr played up. No issues ever again with a new egr and Wynns. No emissions issues either. The Pandas get some twice a year and no ill effect in 10 years of use. Bosch diesel service centres always did the business for me at sensible cost too.
 
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We've had a number of threads mentioning additives generally and I've joined in with my Ha'penny worth myself. So people will know that I'm not a fan of additives. In particular I don't "do" oil additives, I think the money is much better spent on a quality oil. I'm not that fussy about the brand - although I do go for names I "know" and trust - and I don't do extended change intervals. ("Family Fleet" vehicles are done every 12 months or 10,000 miles whichever comes first) and always a filter change at the same time. I'm not a fan of flushing but I'll say no more on that as is can get complicated.

Fuel additives are a bit more complicated. As Jim was saying above, there are fuel additives which you add a whole can at a time - so high concentration - which are intended to clean the system and especially the injector spray holes. These work well if the injector is not grossly contaminated but will probably need more than one dosing if the nozzle is quite dirty. However a seriously clogged nozzle is probably going to need a proper ultrasonic clean up. Probably running a premium fuel which will have higher concentrations of these beneficial ingredients incorporated in them is a better long term solution though. I owned my old 1.9tdi SEAT Cordoba for 19 years and clocked up well into the low 100,000s of miles with it. That was when Low Sulphur diesel was first introduced and there were problems being reported of excessive wear in high pressure injection pumps and injectors due to the low lubricity of these new fuels. I got very worried about the "old style" distributor type pump and traditional spring type injectors in this car which were designed for use with the older fuels so I went looking for an additive which specifically improved lubrication. I came up with Wynns Eco Diesel. (The Wynns brand I knew well from my Drag racing days) https://www.wynns.eu/product/eco-diesel/ This is a product which you dose every tankful with so it's always there. I thought I had a small injector problem at around the 90,000 miles so pulled the injectors and handed them in to Lawsons Diesel (trusted local diesel specialist) for a check over. He dismantled and cleaned them before reassembling and setting the blow off pressures - which had dropped a little with the springs aging - He said he really couldn't find anything wrong with them and was astonished they'd done 90,000+ miles He gave me a free set of sealing washers and new blow off pipes and said he was still embarrassed to be charging me the £25 he did. I'm convinced this lack of wear was down to the Eco Diesel. By the way, it always passed it's MOT with a "Fast Pass" so only one revving up to the governor limit each year!

Now I have the Ibiza with its tiny 999cc 3 cylinder direct injection turbocharged petrol engine. There are a number of things which concern me about small direct injection petrol engines Injector clogging due to the tip being in the combustion chamber is one and inlet tract carbon fouling is another. There are also issues of high pressure pump wear reported, especially on the earlier systems. So I set out to find an additive which would perhaps help with these issues and came up with Archoil AR6900-P Max :https://www.powerenhancer.co.uk/arc...d-petrol-synthesis.html#tab-label-description Again this is a product which you add a small concentration to every tankful so it's always there so always working. I'm not at all convinced about whether it can do much for the inlet tract fouling being as how it's being introduced directly into the combustion chamber? but we'll see. Unless she starts playing up before then, I'm planning to take the inlet manifold off (a bit of a job as it has an integral water cooled intercooler) at around the 50,000 mile mark and have a look into the ports. I'll do a post about it when the time comes.

At present I'm running the Ibiza on Morrison's 95 octane juice which is the fuel octane recommended on the filler cap. I have been meaning to try her on a few tanks full of the Shell premium fuel (which everyone seems to say is the best currently available) to see if fuel economy or performance is noticably increased. Being turboed this engine is bristling with knock detectors etc so should be able to take any advantage available from the higher octane fuel and use it to best effect. I also feel concerned about LSPI which can be a problem with these wee turboed engines - although it doesn't seem to be a particular problem with the VAG units - A higher octane fuel should make pre ignition less likely too. Also of concern was the piston problem on the earlier TSI's where they would break up the piston ring lands. I understand that was a materials problem with the metal the pistons were made from and has been addressed on later units - fingers crossed!

In conclusion then I'm still not a fan of additives for lubricants but do see a place for fuel additives to address specific circumstances. Generally though I think you could spend quite a lot of money on additives and gain very liitle benefit.
Im with you on oil additives. I have used Molyslip in noisy gearboxes to great effect but only tosell a ropy one .. Oooops
 
@Pugglt Auld Jock Is this stuff s Archoil AR6400-P Max PEA Professional Petrol Injector, Turbo, Cat Cleaner actually any good at cleaning turbos egr system. does it really get past combustion. Is there any doccumentation on its effectiveness. I am thinking specificaly about using with twin egr ducatos.
Documentation for any of this sort of product is very thin on the ground. I would encourage you to make contact with the folks at Powerenhancer https://www.powerenhancer.co.uk/ who I've found very helpful in the past and seem very knowledgeable. They used to have a very interesting technical page but it seems to have disappeared recently. I'm not a fan, or in favour of, oil additives but I do think fuel additives have a roll to play. Having said that I think they are only really effective if deployed early. So, if you wait until an EGR or DPF is blocked running a can of additive through the system is unlikely to give much benefit - but might just squeeze you through an MOT? However, used on a regular basis I think they do contribute to keeping things clean and operating as they should. I started using these products many years ago in my 1.9 TDI SEAT Cordoba (Early engine with a Bosch rotary distribution type pump) when they cut down on the sulphur content in diesel fuels. As you may know this caused some problems with high pressure components - injectors and pumps especially - wearing rapidly because the sulphur was an excellent high pressure lubricant and they were now eliminating it from diesel fuels for environmental reasons. As I was mainly interested in protecting from wear, I've always used a product which is added to every tank of fuel, not just an occasional tin tipped in maybe a couple of times a year. I started with a Wynns product - Wynns Eco Diesel - because my friend was the local factory agent and recommended it for it's lubricating properties. Every fill up was dosed and when I yanked the injectors at around 100,000 miles, because I suspected a sticking needle, the specialist I got to overhaul them said he could find no significant wear but that one did have a slightly binding needle. He lapped that one, cleaned up all the others, reassembled them, set the blow off pressures and gave them back to me. That was probably around 15 plus years ago and he took £25 off me, saying he was embarrassed to do so as there wasn't anything for him to do to them. He said he'd never seen a set with that mileage on them that had so little wear. I told him about the Eco Diesel and he said it might well be down to that. The EGR on this engine was carboned up when you looked down the intake but nothing like as bad as many I've seen and it wasn't interfering with daily running. I also got my boy using it in his Fabia 1.9 TDI (PD engine) and the only engine problem we had with that was the, well known, injector loom going open circuit. The VV turbo vanes did seized up but we freed them off by dropping the downpipe and spraying oven cleaner up inside. After half an hour we gave it another spray until the can was empty, gave the operating lever a good work out and fired high pressure water up the turbo to flush the cleaner out. This seemed to sort it out and it went on for at least another couple of years until he traded it for a Fabia Scout with the 1.6 CR engine - which was a disaster in terms of reliability (he runs a KIA diesel now!)

When I bought the Ibiza, with it's Direct petrol injection fuel system and astronomically high fuel pressures I was aware of reported failures of the high pressure fuel pumps - in many manufacturer's models, so not just VAG. So I started looking into fuel additives which added lubricating ability to the fuel. That was when I stumbled across the Archoil and the many favourable reviews for it. I had several very interesting exchanges with the folks at Powerenhancer and decided to give it a try. It went in the Ibiza after I let her "run in" for about 5,000 miles and she ran sweetly all the time I had her (We'll not mention the gearbox - but that had nothing to do with engine/fuel system)

The Scala is now coming up on a similar "running in" mileage and I've half a bottle of the P Max left from the Ibiza which I'll start using soon. Once that's finished I may change to their new product: https://www.powerenhancer.co.uk/product/oilsyn-petrol-power-dna/ However, I most certainly won't be using any sort of engine oil additive. I suppose I'm working on the assumption that it seems to work for me and I very much doubt if it will be doing any harm. Interestingly they seem to suggest that it can reduce inlet fouling on direct petrol injection engines. Personally, I rather doubt that but it'll be a nice bonus if it even slows it down. I had been intending to pull the Ibiza's inlet manifold and take a look at the backside of the valve heads and ports but I sold her before I got round to it.
Im with you on oil additives. I have used Molyslip in noisy gearboxes to great effect but only tosell a ropy one .. Oooops
I agree, Molyslip does seem to do a reasonable job of quietening down gearboxes and final drives. I've used it in a few old A series vehicles - Google eyed Sprite belonging to a friend back in the 60/70s, a friend's A35, rear axle in my Anglia, and others. Doesn't sort the problem but quietens it until you've scraped enough pennies together to repair. Not so confident it would work well in modern boxes and don't even think of putting it in an automatic of any "flavour" of course!
 
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