Technical Ducato excessive MAF reading / black smoke

[Ducato Nat]

Good evening. As a newcomer to this forum, I was wondering if somebody could give me some guidance / advice. I have a 2014 Ducato X250, 2.3 jtd engine code F1AE3481D, 160K Miles.
I bought the van a year ago for conversion to a camper. When I got it, it was reluctant to start, eventually narrowed that down to excessive leak off from the injectors preventing sufficient fuel rail pressure on crank. I changed injectors on cyl 1 & 2, starts no problem now.
The issue I have is black smoke under acceleration. When it's ticking over it's fine, passed MOT no problems a couple of weeks ago. I thought maybe smoke issue was due to new injectors not being coded to the ecu so I asked the garage to do that when they had it for MoT. Their tool was unable to communicate with the injector module in the ECU so I took it to an injector specialist, same problem. He did say that the fuel trims were well within spec so he didn't think injectors were a problem.
So further probing showed me that the MAF was reading 17g/s at idle, which seems excessive. Also the MAP was reading 99kpa, also excessive. I pulled the MAP and it was choked with gunk so I thought I'd better have a look in the intake manifold but found it to be clean when I got it off. So the two sensor readings indicated to me that the issue may lie with the throttle body. If I understand correctly the MAF gives a reading of airflow into the engine which the ECU then modulates using the throttle body. The MAF reading also determines how much fuel to inject, so if there's too much airflow everything else gets thrown out. The problem I have is that the throttle body isn't modulating. It remains in the wide open position except on engine shut down when it closes for about 5 seconds. Is this normal or have I got hold of completely the wrong end of the stick regarding how the ECU controls airflow and fuel flow? I've fitted new throttle body also MAF sensor but it seems both of the old ones were functioning normally and the issue lies elsewhere. So if anybody can perhaps shed some light on what's going on with the airflow and also why the injector coding seems to be off limits I would be grateful, since I'm out of ideas now. Also my apologies for the length of this question.
Regards, Nat.

 

[Kevinridley]

Hi, i also have an over fueling issue and excessive black smoke on throttl, also lumpy tick over . ive replaced the egr and stripped the inlet manifold for cleaning. I’ve changed the oil and fitted new filter, fuel filter and cleaned tank pump. No change to the excessive smoke .
i think looking at the o2 sensor next, where will I find it and how best to remove it.

 

[Ducato Nat]

Hi, i also have an over fueling issue and excessive black smoke on throttl, also lumpy tick over . ive replaced the egr and stripped the inlet manifold for cleaning. I’ve changed the oil and fitted new filter, fuel filter and cleaned tank pump. No change to the excessive smoke .
i think looking at the o2 sensor next, where will I find it and how best to remove it.

If you have the same van as me, x250 face-lift with F1AE3481D 2.3 jtd 130, stand at the front of the van and peer over the top of the engine, down between the back of the engine and the firewall. You can see the exhaust manifold from there. Trace the exhaust and just before it enters the cat the O2 sensor is on the top of the exhaust pipe. You will need to access it from under the van but you can't see it from there so if you know where it is first it helps. You'll need a 22mm spanner.
Now some bad news. At least in my case, the O2 sensor has no bearing on the over fuelling issue. I currently have a non functioning o2 sensor, but I no longer have a black smoke problem. It was the injectors all along. It seems from my experience and also from reading other posts on here that the injectors are a major achillies heel for this engine. I've also read some real horror stories with regards to stuck injectors, sheared clamp bolts etc but in my case changing them was one of the easier jobs I've done on the engine.

 

[LandyAndy]

If you have the same van as me, x250 face-lift with F1AE3481D 2.3 jtd 130, stand at the front of the van and peer over the top of the engine, down between the back of the engine and the firewall. You can see the exhaust manifold from there. Trace the exhaust and just before it enters the cat the O2 sensor is on the top of the exhaust pipe. You will need to access it from under the van but you can't see it from there so if you know where it is first it helps. You'll need a 22mm spanner.
Now some bad news. At least in my case, the O2 sensor has no bearing on the over fuelling issue. I currently have a non functioning o2 sensor, but I no longer have a black smoke problem. It was the injectors all along. It seems from my experience and also from reading other posts on here that the injectors are a major achillies heel for this engine. I've also read some real horror stories with regards to stuck injectors, sheared clamp bolts etc but in my case changing them was one of the easier jobs I've done on the engine.

Did you get your injectors serviced/rebuilt or did you replace with new items?

What was the cost of this process please

 

[Ducato Nat]

Did you get your injectors serviced/rebuilt or did you replace with new items?

What was the cost of this process please

I replaced with new. You can get them reconned if you want, I think Diesel Bob in Preston charges around a hundred quid a go to do it. I've got a bit of a mixed bag in there at the moment, the first two I changed with Bosch OE parts cost around 400 then the second two, generics off ebay for around 100 each.

 

[LandyAndy]

I replaced with new. You can get them reconned if you want, I think Diesel Bob in Preston charges around a hundred quid a go to do it. I've got a bit of a mixed bag in there at the moment, the first two I changed with Bosch OE parts cost around 400 then the second two, generics off ebay for around 100 each.

Thanks.
I assume you then recode them yourself to the ecu?

 

[Ducato Nat]

Thanks.
I assume you then recode them yourself to the ecu?

Yes but you're going to need to do that even if you get your old units reconned since some of the internal parts are replaced. You should be supplied with new codes with your reconned injectors. In my case I have other issues going on which I haven't gotten to the bottom of yet which have prevented me from recoding some of the injectors - either dodgy wiring (possible but unlikely), faulty ecu (possible) or remap done by a chimp with a laptop (likely) But assuming no other issues you can recode using multiecuscan quite easily.

 

[Kevinridley]

If you have the same van as me, x250 face-lift with F1AE3481D 2.3 jtd 130, stand at the front of the van and peer over the top of the engine, down between the back of the engine and the firewall. You can see the exhaust manifold from there. Trace the exhaust and just before it enters the cat the O2 sensor is on the top of the exhaust pipe. You will need to access it from under the van but you can't see it from there so if you know where it is first it helps. You'll need a 22mm spanner.
Now some bad news. At least in my case, the O2 sensor has no bearing on the over fuelling issue. I currently have a non functioning o2 sensor, but I no longer have a black smoke problem. It was the injectors all along. It seems from my experience and also from reading other posts on here that the injectors are a major achillies heel for this engine. I've also read some real horror stories with regards to stuck injectors, sheared clamp bolts etc but in my case changing them was one of the easier jobs I've done on the engine.

I took the o2 sensor out and cleaned it but as you say no difference, the van just over fuels all the time and creates black smoke when its reved, it is lumpy on tickover but no smoke until its reved Up a little. I have had the injectors out and I managed to run them one at a time out of the engine to see if the spray patten was ok, the three i got out were spraying fine, number 4 I couldn’t get out, i got the engine ticking over for 20 mins to get some heat into the head and then managed to get pry bars under it but it wont budge.
I’ve soaked it in wd 40 .
im considering taking it for a specialised to have a look as i just cant find a solution, the only problem is the cost and last time it was only the tank pump not making enough pressure. I got an £800 bill for a replacement and injectors cleaned?( they were new and under warranty) plus fuel filter..

 

[Kevinridley]

The engine pinks when its reved to 1500 revs and produces black smoke so you cant drive it .

 

[Ducato Nat]

I took the o2 sensor out and cleaned it but as you say no difference, the van just over fuels all the time and creates black smoke when its reved, it is lumpy on tickover but no smoke until its reved Up a little. I have had the injectors out and I managed to run them one at a time out of the engine to see if the spray patten was ok, the three i got out were spraying fine, number 4 I couldn’t get out, i got the engine ticking over for 20 mins to get some heat into the head and then managed to get pry bars under it but it wont budge.
I’ve soaked it in wd 40 .
im considering taking it for a specialised to have a look as i just cant find a solution, the only problem is the cost and last time it was only the tank pump not making enough pressure. I got an £800 bill for a replacement and injectors cleaned?( they were new and under warranty) plus fuel filter..

Have you done a leak-off test on the injectors? The fuel pressure issue you mention - was it a crank but no start situation? Because I had that, again due to injectors, allowing excessive leak off on crank which prevented sufficient rail pressure. The ECU needs to see 200 bar in the rail before it will fire the injectors so if there's too much fuel leaking back it will never start. If the injector internal seals are worn they may well be allowing more fuel through than the ECU thinks they are, both leaking off and also into the cylinder. I don't know if you have or could borrow one but a diagnostic tool would really be a big help to you, the more involved the better. A leak off test is pretty easy to do ( see youtube) and it will at least tell you if you have worn injector seals.

 

[Ducato Nat]

The engine pinks when its reved to 1500 revs and produces black smoke so you cant drive it .

Also if you do a leak off test be aware that fuel will also be coming up the leak off pipe from the pump, so make arrangements to catch it. Don't ask me how I know this.

 

[Kevinridley]

Have you done a leak-off test on the injectors? The fuel pressure issue you mention - was it a crank but no start situation? Because I had that, again due to injectors, allowing excessive leak off on crank which prevented sufficient rail pressure. The ECU needs to see 200 bar in the rail before it will fire the injectors so if there's too much fuel leaking back it will never start. If the injector internal seals are worn they may well be allowing more fuel through than the ECU thinks they are, both leaking off and also into the cylinder. I don't know if you have or could borrow one but a diagnostic tool would really be a big help to you, the more involved the better. A leak off test is pretty easy to do ( see youtube) and it will at least tell you if you have worn injector seals.

I did a leak off 10k ago as it wouldn’t start , 2 injectors were leaking too much reducing the rail pressure so tjey we’re replaced, since then 2 more injectors replaced and even the fir 2 were replaced in warranty due to only 10 months old.
the van starts fine and when i had the over fueling problem i did have to drive it hime 120 miles belching out black smoke up the m6 . I do have a fault checker but there are none so its a new level of problems for this van. My other van Peugeot boxer 2.0 none turbo has just decided not to start, it cranks and fires but stops straight away. No management like or and faults on the fault cheaker, im going to but crank and can sensors for it tomorrow and see what happens.

 

[Kevinridley]

Also if you do a leak off test be aware that fuel will also be coming up the leak off pipe from the pump, so make arrangements to catch it. Don't ask me how I know this.

fuel everywhere , yes ive done the same . I came on this sit for some knowledge as i need to fix this mysel, i have been a mechanic for many years but since getting this ducato I’ve been taught that i know nothing. If i go to the van now it will start and run with no engine management light coming on but thick smoke coming from it when it revs and a lumpy tick over. Very frustrating

 

[Ducato Nat]

fuel everywhere , yes ive done the same . I came on this sit for some knowledge as i need to fix this mysel, i have been a mechanic for many years but since getting this ducato I’ve been taught that i know nothing. If i go to the van now it will start and run with no engine management light coming on but thick smoke coming from it when it revs and a lumpy tick over. Very frustrating

Yes it is. When I don't know my own girlfriend's mobile number but I can recite the engine code of my van by heart, maybe I need to reassess my priorities.

 

[ltz]

Yes it is. When I don't know my own girlfriend's mobile number but I can recite the engine code of my van by heart, maybe I need to reassess my priorities.

Just swapped engine on my 2017 twin egr (also known as the last italian tech I will ever own or use ) still getting black smoke on high revs under load. previously had lots of smoke in the former engine even on lower revs which was injector faults. The injector mechanic could not even run the complete bosch tests because of massive leaks (from the tips as I understand it). My thoughts are the injectors this time. How are your injector compensation data looking when tracking a drive with MES connected?

 

[Ducato Nat]

Just swapped engine on my 2017 twin egr (also known as the last italian tech I will ever own or use ) still getting black smoke on high revs under load. previously had lots of smoke in the former engine even on lower revs which was injector faults. The injector mechanic could not even run the complete bosch tests because of massive leaks (from the tips as I understand it). My thoughts are the injectors this time. How are your injector compensation data looking when tracking a drive with MES connected?

I don't know. I can tell you the lines on the graph are indistinguishable at idle, I haven't checked it under load. I'll hook up the laptop and have a look next time I take the van out.

 

[theoneandonly]

Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next | FIAT Ducato

Van is 2017 Euro 6 bought new , now with 26K on clock. Problems started this summer with dash engine light and code P0401 appeared on a country lane at low speed going into a corner so it would be low airflow going in to the engine as it wasn’t ‘working’. Bought FCR and cleared fault, happened...

www.fiatforum.com

This thread has a number of example graphs of Injector variation specifically for the later twin egr variant.
In the guide section is a tutorial I wrote to help someone with no knowledge of mes, but at the end it has an example template. I have looked at these mainly for this version, post the csv on this site and someone else may also look at it .

 

[theoneandonly]

Hi Nat

I don't know the exact cause of your problem, but here are some basics you might find useful.

The F1AE3481D engine is Euro 5, and has a single EGR system plus Catalyst and DPF

A back of envelope calculation for a 2287 cc engine at 800 RPM idle suggests 13 grams per second mass air flow. Given the number of variables and the assumptions I had to make, 17 grams per second doesn't sound too far off.

A manifold pressure of 99 kilopascals is effectively atmospheric pressure, which is what you would expect

@Anthony489
Like your calculations how did you arrive at assumptions. How would get from mg/I to g/s. I've tried to do this in another thread.

 

[Anthony489]

Hi

A mass air flow meter "knows nothing" about the number of cylinders and the RPM happening downstream, so it will typically report to the ECU in units of grams per second. To convert this to milligrams per (injection) stroke, use the following formulas. They also apply to fuel weight. They only apply to 4 cylinder 4 stroke engines.

grams per second x (30,000 / RPM) = milligrams per stroke

milligrams per sroke X (RPM/30,000) = grams per second

As an example of typical figures, take an engine "part throttle" cruising at 2850 RPM with an air/fuel ratio of 30 by weight.

Air grams per second: 75 Air milligrams per stroke = 75 x (30,000/2850) = 789.5 milligrams per stroke
Fuel grams per second: 2.5 Fuel milligrams per stroke = 2.5 x (30,000/2850) = 26.3 milligrams per stroke

 

[theoneandonly]

Hi

A mass air flow meter "knows nothing" about the number of cylinders and the RPM happening downstream, so it will typically report to the ECU in units of grams per second. To convert this to milligrams per (injection) stroke, use the following formulas. They also apply to fuel weight. They only apply to 4 cylinder 4 stroke engines.

grams per second x (30,000 / RPM) = milligrams per stroke

milligrams per sroke X (RPM/30,000) = grams per second

As an example of typical figures, take an engine "part throttle" cruising at 2850 RPM with an air/fuel ratio of 30 by weight.

Air grams per second: 75 Air milligrams per stroke = 75 x (30,000/2850) = 789.5 milligrams per stroke
Fuel grams per second: 2.5 Fuel milligrams per stroke = 2.5 x (30,000/2850) = 26.3 milligrams per stroke

Thanks I was using 60000 not 30000

 

[ltz]

@Ducato Nat how did your car end up? No more black smoke during acceleration? Did you change lambda's? or measure them?