Technical Ducato Benimar 1999 2.8TDi Immobiliser or Injectors!?!?

[samflash69]

Hey all,

Need your help. Have a faulty key code that pops up as the orange key every now and again. Accidentally drove it with it turned on for over 30 mins or so. Then tried to start it and it didnt start. It sat for 9 days until the insurance company got it towed back from the south to my mechanic in Lisbon. Hey, doesnt speak English, although I told him what happened and he said that he checked it and that there is a problem with the injectors. He said it will need to be sent to Bosch to test it, which will take over a week and a good bit of money.

I am asked him did he properçy bleed the line and he said that wasnt the problem. I tried to explain the immobiliser issue and he said it wasnt the issue. Is it just concidence that this happened at the same time or do i need a second opinion? He said the engine is running.

Im unsure what to do.

Thank you

Samuel

 

[bugsymike]

Hey all,

Need your help. Have a faulty key code that pops up as the orange key every now and again. Accidentally drove it with it turned on for over 30 mins or so. Then tried to start it and it didnt start. It sat for 9 days until the insurance company got it towed back from the south to my mechanic in Lisbon. Hey, doesnt speak English, although I told him what happened and he said that he checked it and that there is a problem with the injectors. He said it will need to be sent to Bosch to test it, which will take over a week and a good bit of money.

I am asked him did he properçy bleed the line and he said that wasnt the problem. I tried to explain the immobiliser issue and he said it wasnt the issue. Is it just concidence that this happened at the same time or do i need a second opinion? He said the engine is running.

Im unsure what to do.

Thank you

Samuel

If yours is not common rail , as in ECU controlled electronic injectors with wiring to them , then I seriously doubt all four injectors would fail at the same time.
Though it can give the symptom of no fuel at the injectors. Mainly because the injector pump immobiliser solenmoid has turned the "tap" off!!!
Also if not common rail the fuel pump has an immobiliser solenoid circuit on the back of the high pressure fuel pump which is behind a security cover but is known to give problems and can be bypassed with a little work.
If yours is the later common rail engine then immobiliser side is more involved.
Either way you need to know your "mechanic" knows what he is doing , apart from emptying your bank account.

 

[Communicator]

If yours is not common rail , as in ECU controlled electronic injectors with wiring to them , then I seriously doubt all four injectors would fail at the same time.

The common rail 2.8jtd was made before 2000.

Though it can give the symptom of no fuel at the injectors. Mainly because the injector pump immobiliser solenmoid has turned the "tap" off!!!
Also if not common rail the fuel pump has an immobiliser solenoid circuit on the back of the high pressure fuel pump which is behind a security cover but is known to give problems and can be bypassed with a little work.

As above it will not be a common rail engine. As suggested there is an electronic immobiliser unit behind a security cover on the injection pump. The immobiliser interrupts the electrical supply to the stop solenoid on the pump. The cover can be removed but it involves either drilling out, or grinding the heads of the security locking screws.
With the cover removed the electronics can be bypassed. There will be a wire from the ignition switch, which will need to be connected directly to the wire from the engine stop solenoid on the pump.
There is also the possibility that the stop solenoid itself, which needs a 12V supply for the engine to run, could be sticking mechanically. Faulty stop solenoids can be replaced, but the cover will still need to be removed for access.

The vehicle is 20+ years old. Probably more than the design life of the immobiliser electronics...............

For more information, try using the forum search faciity at the top righthand corner of the page. Perhaps try starting with "immobiliser removal".

Either way you need to know your "mechanic" knows what he is doing , apart from emptying your bank account.

I especially like that part.

 

[Communicator]

My apologies for any confusion. To correct to my previous post.

The common rail 2.8jtd was not made before 2000.

 

[bugsymike]

My apologies for any confusion. To correct to my previous post.

The common rail 2.8jtd was not made before 2000.

I didn't know for sure as different versions in different Countries etc.
The 2.8 Sofim engine I put in my boat was from a customers 1998 Ducato 3.5 tonne Maxi Van from memory and I thought was one of the last or towards the last of the "pre ECU and Common Rail engines" which was what I wanted for simplicity, 10 miles out to sea I didn't want some electrical issues making me "walk home"

 

[samflash69]

Hey all,

Need your help. Have a faulty key code that pops up as the orange key every now and again. Accidentally drove it with it turned on for over 30 mins or so. Then tried to start it and it didnt start. It sat for 9 days until the insurance company got it towed back from the south to my mechanic in Lisbon. Hey, doesnt speak English, although I told him what happened and he said that he checked it and that there is a problem with the injectors. He said it will need to be sent to Bosch to test it, which will take over a week and a good bit of money.

I am asked him did he properçy bleed the line and he said that wasnt the problem. I tried to explain the immobiliser issue and he said it wasnt the issue. Is it just concidence that this happened at the same time or do i need a second opinion? He said the engine is running.

Im unsure what to do.

Thank you

Samuel

It is actually a 2000 year, just when searching for answers in Google I use 1999 as for some reason 2000 creates poor search results. Sorry. Thanks for all your answers, I am going out now to try a few things.

The mechanic has said it is not an ECU although mechanical immobiliser.

I just left the mechanic and initially the vehicle will not turn on at all without using the Easy Start spray. Then we left it running for 5 mins and did start after turning it off. Twice in a row. He did mention the last time I was in that the air filter was in really bad shape and that the oil needed to be changed as soon as possible. To be honest, I dont really trust the guy so I am a little lost, whether it is my trust issues or I have good instincts.

He said the injectors after they are tested by Bosch might cost anywhere from 1000 euro or more. What do I do? I can not find a mechanic to get a second opinion.

 

[bugsymike]

It is actually a 2000 year, just when searching for answers in Google I use 1999 as for some reason 2000 creates poor search results. Sorry. Thanks for all your answers, I am going out now to try a few things.

The mechanic has said it is not an ECU although mechanical immobiliser.

I just left the mechanic and initially the vehicle will not turn on at all without using the Easy Start spray. Then we left it running for 5 mins and did start after turning it off. Twice in a row. He did mention the last time I was in that the air filter was in really bad shape and that the oil needed to be changed as soon as possible. To be honest, I dont really trust the guy so I am a little lost, whether it is my trust issues or I have good instincts.

He said the injectors after they are tested by Bosch might cost anywhere from 1000 euro or more. What do I do? I can not find a mechanic to get a second opinion.

Don't take it as gospel , but generally if engine running and and immobiliser fault it shouldn't cut out for safety reasons as long as you don't switch off, so you could just take it away from mechanic providing you have enough fuel to get home with out turning engine off.
Have you checked whether for sure yours is common rail or not as diagnosis will depend on what you have.
If not common rail there will be no electrical wires to each injector and if that is the case then very unlikely to have all injectors fail at same time. If they were badly worn they may smoke and need overhaul but vehicle will normally still run, even if the people behind are coughing.
Also if not common rail and still an immobiliser fault it would be possible to bypass allowing the vehicle to run as before.
If your diesel injector pump looks like this, but has a security cover over where the four injector pipes, are also covering the large brass solenoid with the single wire, then basically if the security cover and extra wiring is removed then all it needs to run is power to that brass solenoid, assuming it is functioning correctly, as this is all the older versions had and with ignition turned off no power went to the solenoid so no fuel to the injectors and vice a versa.

 

[Communicator]

Yes an immobiliser locked engine can be started with easy start, but it will stop when the easy start is consumed.
@bugsymike has provided a picture of a mechanical injection pump, as used on the 2.8idTD, and other non common rail engines. This is what I suspect @samflash69 has.

An easy identification for the common rail 2.8jtd is to look immediately behind the front engine lifting lug. The four injector cables pass behind this lug, and are held in a clamp immediately to the vehicle left of the lug.

 

[samflash69]

So, I had a second mechanic check it on Friday and they said after checking everything it is the diesel pump and needs to be tested.

Fingers crossed it is not going to cost me a fortune.

Sam

 

[bugsymike]

So, I had a second mechanic check it on Friday and they said after checking everything it is the diesel pump and needs to be tested.

Fingers crossed it is not going to cost me a fortune.

Sam

Hopefully they will confirm it isn't the immobiliser part on the outside of the injector pump before rebuilding the full pump.

 

[Communicator]

Hopefully they will confirm it isn't the immobiliser part on the outside of the injector pump before rebuilding the full pump.

A faulty stop solenoid would be a relatively easy fix, once the security cover is removed.

However may I refer back to post #1.

Hey all,

Need your help. Have a faulty key code that pops up as the orange key every now and again. Accidentally drove it with it turned on for over 30 mins or so. Then tried to start it and it didnt start. It sat for 9 days until the insurance company got it towed back from the south to my mechanic in Lisbon. Hey, doesnt speak English, although I told him what happened and he said that he checked it and that there is a problem with the injectors. He said it will need to be sent to Bosch to test it, which will take over a week and a good bit of money.

I am asked him did he properçy bleed the line and he said that wasnt the problem. I tried to explain the immobiliser issue and he said it wasnt the issue. Is it just concidence that this happened at the same time or do i need a second opinion? He said the engine is running.

Im unsure what to do.

Thank you

Samuel

In my understanding, failure for the code receiver to recognise the key illuminates the key code lamp, and signals to the pump unit to interrupt the supply to the stop solenoid. Without fuel the engine will not start. I am not aware that the key is continuously monitored while the engine is running, and as @bugsymike has stated, for safety reasons a key code failure should not stop an already running engine. So how did @samflash69 come to be driving with the key code light illuminated? It seems that this is possible if the Key Code Unit (KCU) temporarily loses supply due to a bad connection, or faulty ignition switch.

I am unable to understand as to how the mechanics diagnosed a pump fault with the key code failure present. If the code system is active there will be no 12V supply to the stop solenoid. There will be no fuel to the pump, and hence the injectors.

At the moment I am unable to suggest a single failure that fits all of the facts.

Perhaps the best course of action would be to remove the security cover on the pump, by either grinding off the security bolt heads. It could then be confirmed that 12V is reaching the stop solenoid, which I doubt. If no 12V at the stop solenoid, then applying a switched 12V supply may allow the engine to start.

If the engine still does not start, a faulty solenoid valve should be considered before removing the whole pump.

Edit: I have just read on a much earlier thread relating to a similar problem, where advice was given to press the inertia switch on the firewall. A positive result was reported. I do not have wiring diagrams for the x230 2.8idTD, and I am unable to confirm that this was down to logic or luck, but it was possible that the inertia switch had been disturbed on the vehicle in question. Worth a try?

 

[samflash69]

So the mechanic send off the pump for repair and I have been quoted nearly 1300 euro as they say the pump has seized. Is this accurate, does anyone know and does the price seem exhorbant, especially for Portugal. The vehicle only had 120 000km

Samuel

 

[bugsymike]

Just a point, if as report says "Pump is seized" as in not turning, how was the engine turning over without shredding the cambelt?
If pump was in front of us it would be different, but unfortunately you are in their hands.

 

[samflash69]

Just a point, if as report says "Pump is seized" as in not turning, how was the engine turning over without shredding the cambelt?
If pump was in front of us it would be different, but unfortunately you are in their hands.

Do you or anyone else know what model this pump is and is there an alternative pump I can replace it with by sourcing aomewhere in Europe. I can't afford 1300

 

[bugsymike]

Yuk! that looks pretty unloved .
If that is your old one, the solenoid is on the back in the first picture probably behind the security bolted cover if you compare it with the photo I put in an earlier reply to your thread and is what I would have first checked to see if it had power and was allowing fuel into the pump high pressure side.
Another point, the way the pump has been removed I am guessing the mechanic has marked the position of the pump and then there is a bolt with a plate at the front near the gear that if plate removed and bolt refitted should lock timing point of pump to assist in refitting.
Bearing in mind the "keycode" warning light at the beginning of your thread then my attention would have been the immobiliser circuit behind the security cover and bolts. If pump was seized I would have expected cam belt to have snapped and engine seriously damaged.
There doesn't appear to have been much attempt to remove that security cover to inspect as far as I can see.
Re other pumps etc. It looks to me to be a Bosch VE type pump and if you check wikipedia online for Fiat Ducato you will see the 2.8 engine with that pump was fitted to many vehicles around that time including Iveco Daily, Citroen Relay, Peugeot Boxer etc.
There are also reconditioned pumps on eBay for around £660 I think. Obviously labour on top.

 

[samflash69]

Yuk! that looks pretty unloved .
If that is your old one, the solenoid is on the back in the first picture probably behind the security bolted cover if you compare it with the photo I put in an earlier reply to your thread and is what I would have first checked to see if it had power and was allowing fuel into the pump high pressure side.
Another point, the way the pump has been removed I am guessing the mechanic has marked the position of the pump and then there is a bolt with a plate at the front near the gear that if plate removed and bolt refitted should lock timing point of pump to assist in refitting.
Bearing in mind the "keycode" warning light at the beginning of your thread then my attention would have been the immobiliser circuit behind the security cover and bolts. If pump was seized I would have expected cam belt to have snapped and engine seriously damaged.
There doesn't appear to have been much attempt to remove that security cover to inspect as far as I can see.
Re other pumps etc. It looks to me to be a Bosch VE type pump and if you check wikipedia online for Fiat Ducato you will see the 2.8 engine with that pump was fitted to many vehicles around that time including Iveco Daily, Citroen Relay, Peugeot Boxer etc.
There are also reconditioned pumps on eBay for around £660 I think. Obviously labour on top.

Thank you so much for that detailed response. It really helps

 

[Communicator]

Any use?

 

[bugsymike]

@samflash69 How did you get on with the Immobiliser issue? Any information may help others on Forum in the future.