Closed for accident investigation work!

[pooroldcodger]

Is it just me, or do we hear more and more every day an announcement that such and such a road is closed "due to accident investigation work"? Or worse, "T
There was an accident yesterday on the A something or other and it is still closed due to accident investigation work".
We are being told that a justification for spending £50bn+ on a new train line is to speed up journey times and increase productivity.
So surely the same argument should apply to our existing transport infrastructure?
What is the priority? Opening the road or deciding who was at fault for an incident?

 

[hennabm]

Rather than concern themselves with the bigger picture and keeping at least some of the traffic moving they just close the road and treat it as a crime scene.

Yet on many occasions they could open at least one lane to keep some traffic moving

 

[Andy Monty]

Problem is opening a lane = rubber neckers = more accidents / risks to recovery agents / investigating officers that and often the emergency services are still working chopping what ever is left of someone out of a rather mangled car.... Along with spilt fuel /oil running over the carriageway. Adding to fire / skid risk

 

[a1ant]

Hi,

There are 3 main types of road traffic collision.

A "Damage Only" this is where no one is injured. A damage only does not require police investigation unless its suspected an offence has been committed. Even then, this investigation would be by way of witness statements, Electronic Breathalyser Machine etc and does not require the road to be closed. HOWEVER at a damage only, it may be necessary to close the road if it is blocked by the vehicles involved (and they cant be easily moved or dragged) or there is damage to the road itself (melted tarmac, lampost across the road etc) In this case, the amount of time the road remains closed is purely down to the Highways agency/ local council etc. The Priority AFTER safety is reopening the road. Average closure aprrox 1hr.

The second type of RTC is a PI (persons injured). This includes mostly minor injuries, non life threatening, such as cuts bruises, small breaks etc. These DO require investigation weather anyone is believed to be "at fault" or committed any offences or not. However the investigation is relatively straight forward. "first accounts" from all parties involved (quick interview in the back of the police car), a "scetch map" and a few photographs of the scene etc Some basic measurements and estimations etc. Then AGAIN the "investigation side of things is complete and its down to how quick Highways or Recovery can come and fix the road/ recover the vehicles.
The priority AFTER safety, and the small investigation is opening the road. Average closure approx 1-2hr

Then we come on the the 3rd type which is the type I believe you are referring to. These are know as KSI road traffic collisions. (Killed or Seriously Injured). These are the ones that lead to roads being shut for hours or possibly days. These are the most serious type. Where somone has lost their life or will have their life significantly changed because of it. These require very careful investigation (as careful as a murder scene or similar). A special team of officers are called out to attend these. Minuete measurements are taken with GPS devices, the scene is logged in detail. Sometimes 360 degree 3d images may be taken with specialist equipment. The police helicopter may be tasked to fly over and take aerial shots. The vehicles will be examined in situ before they are moved. Then of course you may come on to body removal. Removing the chared remains of a human from a crushed lorry cab forensically can take hours, as can untangling a motorcyclist from the prop shaft of a HGV etc. Then of course once all of the above is done, THEN its down to Recovery and Highways agency to remove the vehicles, repair the road/ furniture etc. The prority AFTER safety is the victim, preservation of evidence, and the investigation into the circumstances. Average closure approx 4- ...... hrs depending on how many vehicles, number of casulties/ fatalities etc

The reason that these long closures have become more common, is purely because the technology and methods of investigating them have improved greatly. Back in the 80's at a KSI you would literally do what I described at a PI. In court it was down to what the officer at the scene thought,what witnesses said etc. Now various things can be proved with great accuracy, and the scene re-created to the smallest detail.

The overwhelming factor in ALL of the above is SAFETY. As Andy Monty says, all of the above involves multiple people working in the carriageway. The majority of people are sensible, but you would not believe what some drivers do. I once attended an RTC car v's motorcyclist. London Ambulance Service arrived first. Whilst they were treating the injured M/Cst a car tried to squeeze between them and their ambulance (because they couldn't wait) and ran over the already injured motorcyclists foot. I kid you not.

Alan

 

[pooroldcodger]

Yes of course safety for the poor folks who have to go an sort out the mess has to be top of the list, and no question about that.
But, as you say, regarding the KSI collission investigations. This now takes longer because the technology to investigate them has improved. Is that not a case of using the technology to the n'th degree and forgetting the fact that this is not a crime scene as in Colonel Mustard in the drawing room with a candlestick - it is a major artery of the country?
I am thinking back to Christmas Day last year when a single car left the M6 and ended up in the trees, tragically killing 2 childrens. The motorway as I recall was closed for most of the day. In both directions.
The vehicle was already off the road.
The driver survived and was available to be interviewed.
But the police wanted to spend many hours staging a reconstruction to find out what happened.
At what point would a higher authority say:
"hang on a minute - we're talking about the M6. Thousands of vehicles.
Do we really need to keep this road closed to stage a re-construction in these circumstances?

 

[Andy Monty]

But if they discover an issue say with the road during the reconstruction for example say a patch of substandard tarmac due to past repair with a lower grip level it could prevent another accident...

If a car is off the carriageway they still have to recover it, you wouldn't be happy with a now scrap car just left in your front garden if it's down an embankment the heavy recovery trucks need room to work and a straight pull

I'm sure if people had a relative injured or killed in a car crash they would want answers and closure to the event

 

[pooroldcodger]

But if they discover an issue say with the road during the reconstruction for example say a patch of substandard tarmac due to past repair with a lower grip level it could prevent another accident...

Yes that's true, but in my example from last Christmas, this was one vehicle that left the road. If several had done so then maybe this could have been a factor, but probably unlikely in this instance.

If a car is off the carriageway they still have to recover it, you wouldn't be happy with a now scrap car just left in your front garden if it's down an embankment the heavy recovery trucks need room to work and a straight pull
Again very true, but the recovery of 1 single Ford Focus, after the removal of the bodies would , however harrowing for the persons doing it surely would not have been complicated.

I'm sure if people had a relative injured or killed in a car crash they would want answers and closure to the event

Yes true, but at what point is that balanced against thousands of people missing flights, missing work etc. especially as I say in this particular instance when they had two adult passengers, one of whom was the driver to interview?
Yes I know it is a horrible business and I am glad I don't have to do it, but I do wonder in single vehicle cases like this one especially, is enough thought being given to the motorway users?

 

[a1ant]

Hi,

The fact the driver survived doesn't negate the need for securing evidence to either disprove or prove his version of events. Especially in a single vehicle accident where the most likely cause is either going to be driver error, or mechanical failure. You have two people alive in your example.... who was REALLY driving? Can this be proved beyond reasonable doubt? How was the vehicle REALLY being driven at the time of the incident? was it in a roadworthy condition? Was there a fault in the carriageway that was unavoidable? Was it mechanical failure caused by an error on the mechanics part?

You would be surprised. These are treated as crime scenes in the same way as Colonel Mustard in the drawing room UNTILL its proven otherwise. You cant "re secure" evidence once its gone, and if you did, its evidential value would be tainted anyway. Serious RTC's are treated in the same way as any other serious crime. If one of your loved ones was seriously injured or worse in an "attack" in the street, you would want EVERY bit of evidence gathered in order to bring the person responsible to justice, or at LEAST to establish the exact facts/ causes.

Almost all major motorways (and some A and B roads) in the UK have pre designed "diversion routes" for this exact reason. You may have noticed that a lot of motorway signs (especially at key junctions) will have a little square, hollow square, rectangle etc in the corner. This is so that should a section need to be closed, motorists can be diverted off the motorway and back on again further up. Granted when a section of motorway is closed, traffic builds up rapidly, BUT its not like there is NO WAY around it unless you are one of the unlucky few who get caught directly behind the incident.

I can assure you that at these types of incident, there is MASSIVE pressure on the officers dealing to get the motorway opened again as quickly as possible, but this simply CANT be at the expense of a proper and thorough investigation. Everything is done as quickly as possible, but securing good evidence etc takes time.

Alan

 

[Andy Monty]

 

[The Beard]

Rather than concern themselves with the bigger picture and keeping at least some of the traffic moving they just close the road and treat it as a crime scene

You may have inadvertently hit the nail on the head there. If the medical consensus is that the incident is, or may turn fatal, then the road and vehicles will be treated as a crime scene.

If a victim is taken to hospital in a serious condition and the road re-opened quickly, then all the Police may have is, at best, eye witness statements and the vehicle(s). If there appear to be no mechanical defects and breath tests and Post Mortems are negative for alcohol and drugs then 48 hours later the scene may be fairly useless.

Because of this, photographs of skid marks, position of debris and the vehicle(s) at the time could provide valuable evidence for the inquest and any subsequent criminal prosecution.

If the alleged perpetrator should happen to be a celebrity or Premiership footballer then the likes of Nick Freeman will be there trying to pick holes in the prosecution case so the more evidence they get, the better. Because of these factors the scene will be treated as that of a murder or serious assault. Of course, there's no certainty that the injured party will die. They may make a full recovery, but in the meantime, they have to assume the worst.

 

[The Beard]

Mmm. If I'd bothered to read a1ant's post I could have saved myself the bother of posting that.

Bugger.

 

[pooroldcodger]

Hi,

The fact the driver survived doesn't negate the need for securing evidence to either disprove or prove his version of events. Especially in a single vehicle accident where the most likely cause is either going to be driver error, or mechanical failure. You have two people alive in your example.... who was REALLY driving? Can this be proved beyond reasonable doubt? How was the vehicle REALLY being driven at the time of the incident? was it in a roadworthy condition? Was there a fault in the carriageway that was unavoidable? Was it mechanical failure caused by an error on the mechanics part?

You would be surprised. These are treated as crime scenes in the same way as Colonel Mustard in the drawing room UNTILL its proven otherwise. You cant "re secure" evidence once its gone, and if you did, its evidential value would be tainted anyway. Serious RTC's are treated in the same way as any other serious crime. If one of your loved ones was seriously injured or worse in an "attack" in the street, you would want EVERY bit of evidence gathered in order to bring the person responsible to justice, or at LEAST to establish the exact facts/ causes.

Almost all major motorways (and some A and B roads) in the UK have pre designed "diversion routes" for this exact reason. You may have noticed that a lot of motorway signs (especially at key junctions) will have a little square, hollow square, rectangle etc in the corner. This is so that should a section need to be closed, motorists can be diverted off the motorway and back on again further up. Granted when a section of motorway is closed, traffic builds up rapidly, BUT its not like there is NO WAY around it unless you are one of the unlucky few who get caught directly behind the incident.

I can assure you that at these types of incident, there is MASSIVE pressure on the officers dealing to get the motorway opened again as quickly as possible, but this simply CANT be at the expense of a proper and thorough investigation. Everything is done as quickly as possible, but securing good evidence etc takes time.

Alan

I see what you are saying, although I would argue that it is more than few that get "trapped" in this situation.
I would also say that the painstaking work that goes in to this accident investigation work does not seem to be respected by the judicial system in terms of either fines or sentences handed out to those found guilty at the end of it.Many a time I have watched one of these police chase type prgrammes and shouted at the telly when some bloke who causes mayhem gets a fine and is banned from driving for a while rather than a serious jail term.
The closure of a motorway used to be serious headline news because it happened so rarely. It isn't anymore, so I guess on that basis we must have many more accidents to investigate than we used to have. But, despite the fact that there are many times more vehicles on the road than 50 years ago, the total accidents, including killed and seriously injured figures are dramatically less, due to better road design and much safer vehicles!

 

[a1ant]

Hi,

I 100% agree with you on the sentences/ judicial system! But thats the same for I would argue ALL crimes. You should see how much paperwork goes into a simple theft case, say for shoplifting. But if the officers didn't do their job properly, and investigate it properly, it would be them getting the blame/ losing their jobs, and not the courts. :shrug:

Generally if there is a LOT of people stuck behind the incident, as in your pic above, and the incident is serious enough for them not to be able to pass for a great length of time, then Highways Agency will open up the central reservation to allow them to do a U turn and drive back up the other side of the motorway. This of course means the other carriageway needs to be closed too. Then once all the caught traffic has gone, the barrier need to be replaced BEFORE traffic can be allowed to flow on the opposite cariageway again. It all takes time unfortunately.

Ive been in both situations, stuck in traffic for 3 hours on the M6 when two lorries crashed and the dead driver had to be cut free, and at the front of it all with miles of tailbacks. Neither place is a good place to be.

Alan

 

[hennabm]

a1ant

The case you use of the M6 is a case in point. As the vehicles were both trucks then there should be little or no evidence in lane 3 as HGVs are banned.

Once a sweep of the 3rd lane has been made to make sure no evidence "flew" in that direction and when the casualties have been removed, the third lane could be opened to relieve some of the pressure on the stuck traffic?

 

[a1ant]

Unfortunately not, HGV1 ended up embedded in the central reservation, and HGV2 was jackknifed across lanes 1,2 and 3.

However, even if lane 3 was clear, if it was necessary for emergency services personnel to be working in lane 2, then they would be inches from lane 3. Don't forget when there are roadworks on the motorway, and only one lane is open, they have miles of cones, average speed cameras, and concrete barriers to protect the workers etc. At the scene of an accident, all that is available in the immediate aftermath is 10 or so cones, a few signs and and some blue flashing lights. Cones won't stop any vehicle that's not paying attention. It's simply too dangerous. There should be at least 1 "dead" lane between the workers and live traffic.

IF the incident was confined to the hard shoulder or lane 1, and there was nothing of evidential value in lane 3, and there was enough room for everyone to work safely then I agree that it would be possible to let traffic pass in lane three. This indeed is often the case.

Once the investigation is complete, the road will be opened very quickly as soon as recovery have removed the vehicles and highways have fixed the road/barriers.

Alan

 

[Andy Monty]

there is little wonder they choose to close down roads...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/6761739.stm

http://gooletimes.info/driver-jailed-for-crash-that-killed-goole-policeman-p485-1.htm

 

[dave]

anyone see Motorway Cops on bbc1 tonight? once it was established no one was hurt the priority was to get the traffic moving that too was A1(M) I think, was a fiat van crashed and a white new shape punto that looked like it had stopped to help

 

[The Beard]

Although I'm a great fan of Top Gear and all the presenters, I'm also afraid that Clarkson doesn't half p**s me off at times. One of those times is when he slags off the HATOs that work on Trunk Roads and Motorways. He may despair of road and lane closures, but if it wasn't for deaths of people using the hard shoulder for legitimate reasons they probably wouldn't be there at all.

I'm unsure of the current figures, but a few years ago they were going down at the rate of 1.5 per month, or 18 per year. The reason they have 18 tonne trucks festooned with amber lights and a huge Keep Left/Keep Right sign on the back is that workers were killed while working next to a live lane. Then a worker was killed because the truck was hit by another. The a car driver was killed when he drove into the back of one of these vehicles. Which is why, if you look at one, you'll see that there is a 10' long energy absorbing buffer on the rear end of it.

If drivers of all types of vehicles just got on with the job of driving properly, at an appropriate speed for the road and traffic conditions, these incidents, and hundred of others wouldn't happen. Then barriers wouldn't need replacing nor would tarmac have to be replaced because of melted surface.

Human nature is such that we are naturally curious, but when, especially with the added risk of i-phones & similar devices, that curiosity develops into an added risk, there have to be some measures taken to protect those who have to go to our aid, whether we've broken down or need emergency help.

If the only way to stop these a**e holes killing and maiming others is to close the motorway, then so be it.

As a contrast, I recently went on a 31' boat around the Garvellach (sp?) Islands off Kintyre and we had no safety briefing and when we got off onto an uninhabited island, not only did we manage to walk around without breaking any limbs, we also got on and off the boat onto a high 60 degree cliff without the aid of a hard hat or hi-vis jacket.

 

[middo85]

To add to A1ant and Beards points,

A few years ago in my area we had a fatal non stop hit and run RTC that actually turned out to be a murder staged to look like an RTC.

The road was closed for most of the day to allow the investigations A1ant described, which led to the true events being uncovered and the offender being locked up and charged within 48hrs.

If the road had been reopened quickly then vital evidence would have been lost.

That was clearly a very rare one but you never know!