General Cam Timing/Cambelt Change

[bigbrother3269]

Help !!!,I'm being driven slowly insane by a 2012 Evo 1.2. It had a cam/crank colleration message on scanning and failed mot due to EML being on. This has been a long standing issue on this car(3yrs+), swapping cam sensor/crank sensor would turn off eml for a period time but no longer. So last week changed cam belt/waterpump etc, used a locking kit supplied by parts supplier as per engine code,swapped crank/cam sensor for new-engine no start. stripped down and re checked everything and timing all ok,put old sensors back on-engine starts....EML still on and the re-learn procedure ive read about wont do anything. Changed vvt solanoid as no oil present in vvt sprocket when i removed plug-still same so after a chat with a punto specialist who mentioned about the pulley should give auadible click when loosened(this one didnt) and assuming vvt sprocket was faulty swapped that yesterday and re-timed again(Im using the guide ive seen on here as referance),again still the same issue. Code P0016 keeps comming back even when cleared. Odd thing ive discovered relating to sensors is the crank sensor is FAE version-ive 2 new ones now from parts supplier that are OE spec and wont start on either of them. Cam sensor swapped twice incase bad sensor. So can anyone throw light on this ?-would it be possible for the engine to run even if lets say crank is 1 rotation out?-ive read on here 2 turns crank to 1 turn cam,cant see it myself but asking all the same. Ive a engine diagnostic guy comming tuesday with he tells me fiat software-is this required does any one know after cam belt change?-and also for the last couple years while EML has been on the car has limited to around 70mph,im guessing for safety purpose-could this have caused long term issue ??. Im scratching my head here and running outa ideas.

 

[eeeno]

If phonic wheel relearn does not fix the issue, then the timing is off just slightly. Sensors can't be the issue here. Did you remember to install the crankshaft pulley so that it aligns with "the small dimple" correctly?

 

[bigbrother3269]

Hello. Yes I've made certain of this. I've been checking previous posts on this-it seems to be a common issue. I'm going to re check for the 4th time this weekend. I had a,mobile diagnostic guy with fiat software here yesterday. Went through all resets,etc. He has done these before. But couldn't resolve this one. I only wondered about sensors due to reluctance to start with new OE crank sensors. . Question.. on the crank pulley is a small V which I'm guessing should line up with crank sensor when timing is set. I've noticed there is a small amount of movement with the pulley when refitting 3 mounting bolts. It amounts to the pulley being effectively just past sensor by a fraction. Would this make enough to cause a problem ?..Secondly would you know if crank was 180 degrees out(1 turn) would the engine still start ?..-I ask as I can't see any timing marks on flywheel when the locking tools are fitted..could the crank be out by a turn ?. -this has been like this fir at least 2 years since the car had cam belt installed by another garage. . I'm wondering if they spun crank around when old belt came off. I've put all new stuff on but assumed everything was OK as engine running. ...

 

[eeeno]

You said crank pulley felt a little loose. There's a small hole in the pulley and make sure that the dimple goes straight inside that hole. Then it's aligned correctly with the sensor and should not have much movement. If dimple's missing, it might have cracked previously. It's not unheard of and makes installation a bit difficult.

Engine wouldn't run at all if the timing was off too much. If you can install locking tools correctly, then timing should be ok, but issue might be the crankpulley alignment.

I recommend taking it to Fiat this time. It's worth the money when you're fed up checking stuff again and again.

 

[varesecrazy]

Where are you based?

Some places have great acess to experience.. others do not unfortunately

 

[bigbrother3269]

Hi guys,yes im starting to wonder if the issue is to do with crank pulley. And yes the locking tools all fit -Ive rechecked this 4 times,doubting myself the first time but no. Im based in Tamworth which is M42 Junction 10 if anyone close wants to have a look. Odd thing as well-My neighbour asked me to look at thier Ford Ka today,Guess what engine it has and guess what fault code is showing....yup P0016-looks like its catching !. If i get any success over the weekend ill post a reply .

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi

The correlation fault is usually due to the timing being 'altered'
A belt change is a common cause..and the relearn is usually enough to keep that happy

Somebody recently had a Tensioner issue on this engine.. the fluctuating tension was triggering the code

People over the years have recommended Motormech in Bham.. near the Bullring

But youve got the kit and experience to rule out a few more things yet


Member @puntodeltathema

Had a weird timing issue recently too

Charlie

 

[puntodeltathema]

My issue (which took a while to work out!) was the fact the cam lock wouldn't actually go in the correct way round - I could only get it in 180 degrees out. That wouldn't necessarily matter of itself (if it was exactly 180 degrees out) but in fact there was some play in the lock in this incorrect position. Check for this - if you can move the cam at all when it is supposedly "locked" and you don't have other locks/options then make sure as best you can that the cam is at the mid position of the play, with the top of the slot in the end of the cam parallel to the corresponding bit of the lock (the fact they don't touch tightly together is the issue here). Then check the crank is correctly aligned. If it's not, you can loosen the cam pulley bolt to adjust and retighten, without having to take the belt off etc. (Take precautions against oil contamination of the belt if you've put the outer cap back on the VVT sprocket).

Unfortunately these engines (or rather the Marelli engine management) seem to be very sensitive to slight cam/crank correlation errors.

All of the above from a 500 by the way, not a Punto but am assuming it's all the same. Hope of some help!

Nick

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Here's an interesting historic post from the forum which seems to be very similar? https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/p0016.450202/

I'm very suspicious of what you say about there being no oil present when you pulled the plug from the front of the VVT sprocket. There's always enough oil leaks out of this that it's worth putting a large rag under it to catch the spill in my experience. If no oil came out when you pulled that plug I think this is what needs investigating. My first guess would have been the filter on the solenoid or the solenoid itself, but you say you've fitted a new unit complete so, presumably, that's not the problem. I guess it's therefore got to be down to either a blockage in the oil supply somewhere or maybe the ECU not driving the solenoid - check wiring continuity before suspecting the ECU itself.

What are you using to scan the system? Many posts on here about unreliable results being obtained with cheaper code readers/scanners. Many of us on here use Multiecuscan. I do and it's an excellent package. Regarding the "Phonic Wheel Relearn" I've followed many people's posts about this and I've reached the conclusion that the ECU has to be "ready" to accept the parameter defining "rev up" procedure. If you do it with MES (Multiecuscan) it seems to do some sort of a "wipe" prior to you doing the "rev up", a feature of which is that you'll see the MIL flashing when it's ready. Some people report that having seen their MIL flashing whilst driving around normally, they did the rev up procedure and the light went out with the car driving normally. Others report that, observing the light being on, they did the rev up procedure but it was unsuccessful. They don't mention whether the MIL/CEL was flashing though. I think the flashing MIL is an indication that the ECU is "ready" to accept the new parameters. Personally I'd be initiating the procedure with my MES if I ever have to do it.

Having said all that though, I think you need to establish what's going on with the oil supply to the VVT sprocket. Is there any chance the sealing ring in the cam cover has obscured the hole?

 

[eeeno]

No cracks in the phonic wheel on the crank pulley? Its teeth can be damaged quite easily.

Elearn defines procedure for new ECU/Injection self-learning procedure as follows (for 1.4):
Start engine and if warning light flashes, initialization must be carried out. Let engine warm up idling without pressing the accelerator, (+77 degrees c). Then make three accelerations on neutral, rpms reaching 6000 rpms, release pedal and let revs drop to 1000 rpms. Repeat three times. If warning light continues to flash, continue accelerations until the flashing stops and warning light goes out. Then turn ignition off, wait one minute for the information to be recorded permanently in memory.

Procedure is probably very similar on this car. It had new new sensors? I think it needs same reset for new sensors as well.

Also VVT thing, does it make noise? Sometimes it's unable to lock and cam pulley can be turned by hand slightly. It had run dry. Maybe it is the source of this problem?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

No cracks in the phonic wheel on the crank pulley? Its teeth can be damaged quite easily.

Elearn defines procedure for new ECU/Injection self-learning procedure as follows (for 1.4):
Start engine and if warning light flashes, initialization must be carried out. Let engine warm up idling without pressing the accelerator, (+77 degrees c). Then make three accelerations on neutral, rpms reaching 6000 rpms, release pedal and let revs drop to 1000 rpms. Repeat three times. If warning light continues to flash, continue accelerations until the flashing stops and warning light goes out. Then turn ignition off, wait one minute for the information to be recorded permanently in memory.

Procedure is probably very similar on this car. It had new new sensors? I think it needs same reset for new sensors as well.

Also VVT thing, does it make noise? Sometimes it's unable to lock and cam pulley can be turned by hand slightly. It had run dry. Maybe it is the source of this problem?

That seems to support my "theory" that the CEL (or whatever you prefer to call it) has to be flashing before the ECU will accept the new parameters it can measure when the revving up procedure is carried out? I just remembered our OP in his first post was asking about crankshaft revolutions. Something about would it run with the crankshaft one rotation out? Big brother, as I think you know, the crankshaft rotates 2 revs for every one rev of the camshaft. Or, to look at it another way, the pistons go up and down their bores twice for every one revolution of the camshaft. So, if we set up No1 piston at TDC and rotate the crankshaft once it simply brings us back to the same place. Be very careful if you decide to do this with the timing belt disconnected because the engines with VVT cam sprockets are interference so there's a considerable risk of damaging a valve. By the way, with the "dumbell" crank locking tool in place you'll find the pistons are all at "half mast" so there's no risk of piston/valve contact if the cam moves. The early engines were timed by marks on the crank and cam sprockets and when the crank marks were lined up then No1 and No4 were at TDC. I've wondered why they did the later engines differently (ie all pistons at "half mast") and I think it's because, doing the job by the recommended method, you will be slackening the cam sprocket retaining bolt. This has to increase the possibility of someone, without considerable experience and understanding, ending up causing damage to valves/pistons if the No1 and No4 were at TDC. Setting them all at half mast avoids this.

You also say your suspicious of those FAE sensors you bought. FAE? I thought: http://www.fae.es/en/ they've been around a long time. But then I realized I was thinking of FAI: https://faiauto.com/ whose parts are stocked by my local factor and I find them very good. It would seem however that have been around a long time and, although I like to buy genuine parts when it comes to components like this, I'd be surprised if you have a problem with this make. Not quite sure what your reference to "version-ive 2" for the crank sensor refers to.

 

[koalar]

?..Secondly would you know if crank was 180 degrees out(1 turn) would the engine still start ?..-I ask as I can't see any timing marks on flywheel when the locking tools are fitted..could the crank be out by a turn ?. -this has been like this fir at least 2 years since the car had cam belt installed by another garage. . I'm wondering if they spun crank around when old belt came off. I've put all new stuff on but assumed everything was OK as engine running. ...

yes the cam lock tool can be fitted the wrong way. Stupid design

On the panda 1.2 the square cut out has to be at the top

The crank locking tool on the Panda can only fit in one position. Three screw hole and one locating pimple

Going to be off line for a bit. See if we can get to the bottom of this a bit later on

 

[koalar]

The VVT is oil driven

The solenoid adjusts the flow of oil within passages in the cam cover

The oil is only connect between the cylinder head and cam cover via some O rings

Here’s some I took out of a 70,000 car. They are well shot. No longer rubber more like solid plastic

If you didn’t replace them at the same time as the belt it could explain the lack of oil at the VVT

I don’t know of an easy test. I guess you could test the pressure at the solenoid but don’t know what it should be

 

[bigbrother3269]

Hey all,sorry ive not reported back for a long time-been a manic few months. So the good news then...I found the fault in the end. I was constantly drawn to the crank pulley-a couple of you mentioned this i noted. So I got to wondering why there was a slight amount of movement in it-as in about 3mm-when i was bolting it up you could rock it back forward slightly -which i realised was enough to throw it out by 1 tooth on the ring.Wondering why this was as it lines up with that dimple.....or it would had it have been there!!. On closer inspection you guys were right,it had broken off and i hadnt noticed. feel like a right idiot !. Basic but overlooked totally. Anyway i realised the tension on the aux drive belt when running was causing the pulley to move slightly-hence the problem. I re-aligned the pulley and drilled out what was left of the dimple,tech bolted the pulley to secure it and bolted up tight. Bloody engine light went straight out during re-learn process and has stayed off since. Kicked myself i really did. So thanks to you all for help and advice given. One for the books in my memory-it wont happen again. The ford Ka was actually the timing belt jumped a few teeth though. Happy days since. Thanks again all. Happy New Year to you all

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

A happy new year to you too. Thanks very much for letting us know about the missing "pimple". I've heard of the cast in pulley key shearing so that the pulley no longer is located correctly on the crankshaft nose but I've never heard of the pulley "pimple" shearing. Wonder if the 3 retaining bolts could have been slack enough to have allowed it to "fret" away as the engine was running. Often frustrating how simple something like this is to rectify but so hard to find what is wrong.

 

[eeeno]

Thank you for letting us know. I'm glad that you were able to sort it out. I know the feeling of being angry at myself after wasting time when a simple fault was just right under my nose.