General Automatic or Manual?

[mj2k]

Genuine autoboxes (with torque converter) very rarely fail.

But when they do, it's very expensive and time-consuming to fix, esp the common issue of autobox flare in high mileage cars, or those used to tow horse boxes (usually too heavy, so wear the autobox clutches out and damage the ATF pump / torque converter with debris). Having been bitten by the latter issue, I avoid larger / 4x4 autos with a tow hook from 'horsey' families just in case...

Also modern autoboxes are reliant on electro-mechanical relays once again rather than the traditional governor, and any premature failure or debris in them is even more expensive to fix than a semi-auto electromechanical issue, if you can even get the spares. Luckily this one's pretty rare though, unless the ATF fluid change intervals have been ignored (or aren't specified in 'sealed for life' boxes).

 

[TrevC]

A bit off topic, but about 20 odd years ago a work colleague bought, on special offer, a new Seicento with a semi-autobox - I can't remember Fiat's name for it. He had so many warranty visits with the gearbox that eventually Fiat agreed to convert/ change it to a manual box f.o.c!

 

[mj2k]

A bit off topic, but about 20 odd years ago a work colleague bought, on special offer, a new Seicento with a semi-autobox - I can't remember Fiat's name for it. He had so many warranty visits with the gearbox that eventually Fiat agreed to convert/ change it to a manual box f.o.c!

Think it's slightly more on topic than me rambling on about horsey types and their appetite for autobox clutch packs though, since the 500 isn't terribly likely to be used for towing a horse box, unless it's one with a 'my little pony' in it

 

[puntodeltathema]

Often wondered about converting Dualogics to manual (despite my earlier supportive comments ). Given it's the same basic box underneath the mechanical bits would seem relatively straightforward (a new gearbox top cover with selector levers, cables etc to go to the cabin, cabin lever, clutch hydraulics, pedal box (OK maybe it is getting a bit involved...) but it will be the need for a different (?) engine ECU (and body computer/display cluster?) which would be the trickiest bit. Unless there is something clever to be done with CAN settings and alignment.

The USA got a "proper" torque converter 500 which we were denied in Europe - presumably because of EU emissions targets/regs....

 

[John202020]

Genuine autoboxes (with torque converter) very rarely fail.

My dad's (Honda) did 200k 20 years before a sensor failed that was no longer available

 

[JTD_Liam]

Is the common fault with Dual Logic the oil seals going? How common is this? Is there any way to negate this from happening? I was more interested in buying the automatic, but if it’s such a huge problem then that will put me off.

With manuals, I’ve researched that common faults are -

1) Clutch Cylinders - the master and slave cylinders can leak, so you lose hydraulic pressure and the clutch won’t work.

2) Gear Selector can break - the rods pop off

3) Master cylinder is broken - plastic on it can be bent or hasn’t got a bracket

I'm not sure where people are getting the idea from that those issues are common. The 500 has sold tens of thousands of units in the UK and I can count on one hand the number of manual gearbox issues I've seen reported.

Between family & friends I know of at least 10 500s of varying ages from 2009 to 2016, owned in some cases up to 8 years (one friend is on their 2nd & another on their 3rd 500), mostly 1.2 manuals but one TwinAir & one diesel - none of them have had any gearbox issues.

Door handles falling off, hatch wiring breaking & Dualogic gearbox problems are common, but manual gearbox or clutch issues are not common in any way, shape or form.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Definitely with you on that, and having seen the issues with Alfa sillyspeeds selespeeds (the current Dualogic's grandparent) the complexity and mixture of electronic, mechanical and electomechanical parts in a semi-auto box makes it much more issue prone.

Also interesting to see @Goudrons' comments about driveability, IMO the semi-auto boxes are much more suited to track use, where the paddle shifts are a real boon in preventing momentary loss of concentration or fudged shifts, whilst having no power-sapping torque converter or cvt drive bands. The Dualogic's great grandparent in the Alfa 155 DTM was pretty spectacular, just listen to those shifts!

Ok, lovely noises but I would argue that the Stratos sounded even better and was Oh so exciting to watch - I'm told it was a real b****r to keep going straight! Oh, and by the way, for me a "slush box" - torque converter epicyclic - is the only way to go.

 

[JTD_Liam]

A bit off topic, but about 20 odd years ago a work colleague bought, on special offer, a new Seicento with a semi-autobox - I can't remember Fiat's name for it. He had so many warranty visits with the gearbox that eventually Fiat agreed to convert/ change it to a manual box f.o.c!

Was that the Citymatic?! They were meant to be dreadful gearboxes. Mind you having driven a Dualogic TwinAir I quickly decided I'd rather walk than own something like that, too! Absolutely hateful thing - all the revvy nature of the TwinAir, completely ruined by randomly timed gear changes. Just awful. It may suit the 1.2 engine better, but I still wouldn't.

 

[puntodeltathema]

"Dualogic Twinair - I'd rather walk".... Oh dear, the case for Dualogic may be lost...

Still think there is something joyful about a well sorted example doing it's clever stuff, but it's obvs just me. I'll get me coat.

(And I never knew they did a slushbox Stratos... )

 

[JTD_Liam]

"Dualogic Twinair - I'd rather walk".... Oh dear, the case for Dualogic may be lost...

Still think there is something joyful about a well sorted example doing it's clever stuff, but it's obvs just me. I'll get me coat.

(And I never knew they did a slushbox Stratos... )

A 1.2 may be ok with the Dualogic box - I can't remember experiencing a 1.2 Dualogic, so that either means I haven't been in one or it was unremarkable, but with the TwinAir engine it was just awful and I love the TwinAir engine, so the awful experience could only be blamed on that gearbox.

In either case their relative fragility vs the manual would have me hesitating and for me they just don't drive nice enough to warrant the risk.

 

[jrkitching]

Door handles falling off, hatch wiring breaking & Dualogic gearbox problems are common, but manual gearbox or clutch issues are not common in any way, shape or form.

I'd say that's reasonable guidance for anyone contemplating a 500 purchase, particularly those trying to choose between a manual and a dualogic.

I've a 100k+ 1.2 manual Panda that's shown no sign whatsoever of any kind of clutch or transmission issue.

There have been small number of reports of input shaft bearing/oil seal failures on high mileage manual 'boxes, definitely worth checking this if the 'box is out for a clutch swap.

Clutch hydraulic failures are more commonly reported; definitely a weak point on RHD cars, though an easily fixed one if you manage to source the parts for a reasonable price, which sadly isn't as simple as it used to be. I suspect many of these could have been prevented if the fluid had been changed regularly, but this isn't officially in the service schedule and most don't bother.

 

[jrkitching]

Genuine autoboxes (with torque converter) very rarely fail.

That's true, though a perusal of the 500 (USA) thread will show that it's not unknown on those 500's which do have such transmissions. They're also a heck of a lot nicer to drive than a dualogic.

But when they do, it's very expensive and time-consuming to fix

That's also true, but generally they only fail after high mileages (100k+). Folks regularly report dualogics falling apart after a quarter of that.

However with a torque converter transmission, particularly in smaller cars, the inherent transmission losses cost you an extra 10%-20% in fuel. Over the life of the car, that's in the order of £2k-£3k; probably about what it would cost to properly repair a dualogic.

In the long run, there's no escaping the fact that with fossil-fuelled cars, driving an automatic instead of a manual is going to cost you more money.

These days, I'd be steering anyone who really needs a two pedal car towards an EV.

 

[Goudrons]

I have a Renault Clio at the moment with a wet dual clutch, 7 speed gearbox (EDC) and it's brilliant, far better than I ever expected.

I seem to think it's the Getrag 7DCT300 , so good for 320nm or so of torque, though I have 240nm.
I have read there maybe a weak point in some clutch housings, some have a poor weld that can break and the clutch housing centre shears from the rest of basket, though so far no problems, no worries yet either as it came with a 5 year warranty (which I still have 3 left).

I drives better than any automatic I've ever driven.
It just feels the engine, gearbox and road wheels are more solid and connected to each other, more so any autos I've driven and some manuals.

There's none of that awful odd high revs to road speed malarky, none of that crescendo of revs then that mushy, lurchy slip into next gear or that hunting for a steady cruising speed some torque convertors suffer from.
It's just "blip" next gear, "blip" next gear, all pretty instant, smooth and lurch free.

There's no hard shifts up or down and it never gets flustered or delayed selecting the right gear when slowing and pulling away at roundabouts etc.
It seems it's always in the right gear so there's little need for the kick down, over take or speed up at any speed and it doesn't bat an eye lid, it's just off!
If you're really brutal with the accelerator and snap it down hard, it'll drop a cog or even two (in one change), but again it's instant and seemlessly smooth.

I'm getting an average mpg around London of 45 mpg (my old Twinair manual never cracked 34 mpg around town) and on a motorway run I've seen 58 mpg (London to Glasgow and back).
I would normally say that's not bad for a 1.3 turbo petrol, fanstatic or a petrol with an auto gearbox, but it's actually very impressive.

Before I bought this I did try all the competition and the DSG in the Polo/Ibiza was about the closest, but I found them to be a bit weedy as they only came with 95 or so hp (Clio has 128hp) and they were obviously turned for a bit more economy/emissions than drivabilty which did show up on all the test drives.

Both DSG's also felt a bit dimwitted on occasions, like it couldn't quite work out if you wanted 1st or 3nd when slowing to a near stop and accelerating again.

 

[mj2k]

That's true, though a perusal of the 500 (USA) thread will show that it's not unknown on those 500's which do have such transmissions. They're also a heck of a lot nicer to drive than a dualogic.

That's also true, but generally they only fail after high mileages (100k+). Folks regularly report dualogics falling apart after a quarter of that.

However with a torque converter transmission, particularly in smaller cars, the inherent transmission losses cost you an extra 10%-20% in fuel. Over the life of the car, that's in the order of £2k-£3k; probably about what it would cost to properly repair a dualogic.

In the long run, there's no escaping the fact that with fossil-fuelled cars, driving an automatic instead of a manual is going to cost you more money.

These days, I'd be steering anyone who really needs a two pedal car towards an EV.

I still remember reading about the Chevy Chevette, the US version of the Vauxhall Shove-it. Chevette in the UK was ok-ish with it's standard 58 bhp 1.2 motor, but in the USA with it's 53 bhp, power sapping autobox and air conditioning, in a road test it was actually slower accelerating than the original Fiat 500

Personally I actually quite like driving large autos (older Mercedes' are actually far more pleasant to drive as an auto than as a manual), but power issues aside that also means I've had more than my fair share of failed autoboxes, especially the more modern electronically controlled ones. So I wouldn't be describing them as 'trouble free' any more than I'd describe an Alfa 156 as 'rust free'; for simplicity the manual wins out over the auto and semi-auto every time, and agreed, if you need 2 pedals an EV makes far more sense than either of them, both in terms of driveability and economy.

 

[mj2k]

There's none of that awful odd high revs to road speed malarky, none of that crescendo of revs then that mushy, lurchy slip into next gear or that hunting for a steady cruising speed some torque convertors suffer from.

That's autobox flare, a far more common issue than many would believe, and a sign the 'box is well past it's sell by date.

I guess a manual box's equivalent in wear terms would be one which constantly whines, and crunches as you change from gear to gear.

 

[vexorg]

I suspect many of these could have been prevented if the fluid had been changed regularly, but this isn't officially in the service schedule and most don't bother.

Clutch fluid or gearbox fluid?

I've had several proper autobox cars, and on a day to day basis they are great for driving. I'd have another were it not for the poorer mpg, especially when the cost of fuel is high.

 

[jrkitching]

Clutch fluid or gearbox fluid?

Clutch hydraulic fluid.

 

[vexorg]

I've never heard of that, I've never had to change the clutch fluid unless the slave cylinder has failed, again not often.

 

[TrevC]

My son has a 2017 Kia Ceed 1.6 diesel estate with a 7-speed DCT. It pulls well, changes gear really smoothly and returns high 50s mpg on a good run. VAG DCTs had loads of faults reported on Honest John a few years back, so are probably best avoided like the Dualogic.

 

[Goudrons]

Brake and clutch fluid is hydroscopic

I've never heard of that, I've never had to change the clutch fluid unless the slave cylinder has failed, again not often.

Brake and clutch fluid is hydroscopic, meaning it attracts water and moisture from the air.

If you leave it too long all the moisture in the fluid starts rusting the internals of the master and slave cylinders and then bits of rus and pitted pistons start ripping at the seals within which is why they start to leak and fail. This is why you should replace the brake and clutch fluid every 3 or 4 years (see the service schedule) and only use new, clean fluid from a sealed container (not any old fluid that's been sat on the shelf in a garage for years attacting moisture).

It's one of the main reasons masters and slaves fail.
If you pull the piston out of a failed master or slave, 9 times out of 10 it's full of rust like this.