Technical Any tricks to fix understeering...

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Technical Any tricks to fix understeering...

dumbledore

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Got a lot of undesteering when is wet on the road.
Any tricks then work on a MK1 Punto?
I am currently lowered 35mm on Eibach springs with standard shock.
In the dry things are much better, but still on the limit the car understeers.
 
All the usual stuff will work. Thicker rear ARB, thinner front, etc.

In the wet, though, it may simply be about carp tyres. I like Rainsports.

I would fit decent shocks, though -- Monroe Reflex are fairly cheap from Halfords if you know anyone with a trade card. Any shock will be well past its best at over 40k miles.
 
The shocks are fairly new, replaced them last year. The model is Punto 60SX, 1.2 8V. It's got ARBs.
So yes, crap tires probably, but can better tires really fix that wet under-steering? Also are Puntos inherently bad for under-steer.
What about lowering a bit more at the front to get a bit more weight at the front tires. Would that do anything?
 
Doubt it would improve things -- might make them worse. Better bet is either to stiffen the rear springs or thicker ARB.

In the wet, it's really about grip. I used to deliver pizzas in the Sei. The only way you could stop getting bored stupid (apart from racing the taxis) at 2 in the morning was to corner, ahem, enthusiatically.

One of the roundabouts has white hash markings as a circle within the circle of the roundabout: you're not supposed to go in there! But the corner can effectively be clipped if you do. One wet night I turned in, clipped the hashed bit (which had much less grip) and found nothing but understeer as I headed cheerfully toward the other curb. Fortunately I didn't do anything daft like hit the brakes and it all came back when I left the hatched section.

I don't think Puntos are especially bad for understeer, but it will always underly the handling of any FWD car.

I'm not recommending you try this, but Rallycinq's rally-cinq has no front ARB.......... so less roll stiffness on the front for less (perhaps much less!) understeer.
 
Slow down a bit? :p

As above, an ARB if you havent got one. What wheels and tyres are you running? Lower profile, harder sidewalls may remain stiffer but will loose traction quicker than a higher profile tyre.

In all serious though, my Sporting is totally standard and I have no issues with understeer at all. Only time I have experienced it was on a notoriously slippy round about in the wet accelerating hard out of it in 2nd and even then it wasn't excessive and totally controllable. I've never been caught out by it understeering when I didn't want or expect it to.

Maybe you just need to calm down a bit and read the road ahead rather than taking every corner guns blazing. You can have plenty of fun in a car without taking it beyond it's limits :)


Ps. Yes, I am getting old, I think...
 
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The cornering limits in the wet are pretty low. In the dry is almost OK although It could be better. The car tells well what it can do thanks to the manual steering but it can be frustrating when I want to push on. Embarrassing having to back down with a 60bhp car. Understeering is evident and easily induced in a corner when power is applied. The car does not roll as its got lowering springs but it slides easily requiring more steering action to manage the corner.
The tyres are 165/65/14 on standard punto alloys. They are not the best but made sure I left the best at the rear to avoid any nasty unexpected oversteering. The car has ARBs both front and rear.
 
165/65/14?

Needs 195/45/14s on 6J wheels. With decent tyres: Toyos, Rainsports, etc. even Falkens, you can pretty much ignore the wet. Maybe -- compare the rolling circumference -- 195/45/15s: sometimes you can pick up the 6J steelies from Multiplas pretty cheap.
I was thinking to go to 175/60/14 that may fit to my standard wheels, would that make any difference?
 
What about lowering a bit more at the front to get a bit more weight at the front tires
Lowering or raising makes no difference at all to weight distribution. Anyway more weight on the front would increase understeer.
an ARB if you havent got one
Adding a front ARB or making it stiffer will also increase understeer. An ARB makes no difference to static weight distribution, but when cornering an ARB does throw more weight onto the outside tire at the end the ARB is fitted. So that tire has to do more of the work, so has to be turned more sharply to generate enough lateral force, so will be nearer to its limit sooner, at which it just slides. That's understeer.

The only way an ARB will improve handling, is to prevent the suspension deflecting beyond its proper geometric limits. If the geometry goes so crazy at large deflections, that the handling goes to pot, then an ARB preventing that my improve handling overall even if you've worsened it by messing with weight distribution.
Lowered springs will have slightly destroyed the designed suspension geometry, and on cornering the suspension will deflect even closer to its geometric limits.

To reduce understeer:
Reduce front roll stiffness - weaken the front ARB and/or weaken the front springs.
Alter weight distribution - give the front tyres less of the work to do, by moving heavy things like battery to the rear.
Increase roll stiffness by same %age to both front and rear, to keep suspension deflection within its proper geometric limits.
Fit crap tyres to the rear, so front grips more than rear (only joking).
Overhaul all the suspension and steering bushes, so the geometry works as designed.
 
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Nice comments here, but still no clear solution apart for going expensive uprated tyres.
As I think the car in the dry feels quite good, which means the geometry is still fine with the lowered springs. In the wet the geometry will be less affected as the car cannot be pushed as hard as in the dry.
My understeer in the wet is evident only if I accelerate in the corner, so is induced I think by loss of traction in the tyre caused by acceleration and not by the extra weight of the engine entering the corner too fast. When accelerating in the corner the car weight starts shifting to the rear making the front wheels loose traction.
I reacon an alternative method to dial out some understeer will be to stiffen the rear shocks as they will resist shifting of the weight to the rear when accelerating. Do you think this is worth a try?
 
Worth a try, but I'd be inclined to leave the springs as they are and play with the ARBs. Putting harder springs in can only make the car less compliant over bumps, which, as you really want all 4 wheels in contact with the tarmac as much as possible, isn't a good thing.

Ideally, fit cockpit adjustable blade type ARBs front and rear. See Staniforth's books for details.

But I think it's mainly about grip (can't be about torque steer unless you've turbocharged the engine!). So, bigger, better, tyres are the way to go. Falken's and Rainsports don't have the FAT CAR cache of Toyos and the like, but work pretty much as well and are not particularly expensive.

Denzell Brunning who worked for West Surrey Racing at the time wrote some interesting stuff, too, in CCC many years ago. One of his suggestions was on the lines of Fostertom's, but putting wider tyres on the most heavily ladem end of the car.
 
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Worth a try, but I'd be inclined to leave the springs as they are and play with the ARBs. Putting harder springs in can only make the car less compliant over bumps, which, as you really want all 4 wheels in contact with the tarmac as much as possible, isn't a good thing.
Thanks
Yes, I am suggesting to get some adjustable shocks not springs at the rear that I can use to stiffen the rear and see if I can reduce the understeer. However, it will be hard to get any such shocks for punto mk1 as they are not commonly available. I could go for racing shocks that can be selected for given size and try to fit them, as the punto shock are pretty simple design at the rear.
 
I use lift-off oversteer all the time - in the mk.1 Cabrio which has normal Sporting suspension which is a bit lowered, stiffened and fatter tyres - and worked even better in the old ELX75 with taller softer susp and in-between tyres.

Just as you turn into a corner, lift off the throttle completely then straight back on, quick as you can. Just for an instant it gives the front tyres less work to do, so they can give more lateral force, so the nose turns in (feels more like the tail steps out) and the car is then ideally set to generate cornering force at both ends neutrally.

On a long motorway cloverleaf, you can practice playing with the throttle so the car goes round perfectly balanced, with minimum steering wheel. More throttle and it runs wide, less throttle and it tucks in.

Without controlling it like that, if you put your foot down in a corner it's bound to create understeer, in a fwd (rwd another story).

I find lift-off oversteer so enjoyable - it's miraculous! On a long bend which tightens, no panic, just lift off momentarily and the car seems to find another whole dollop of tidy cornering power. Mind you, if you're going really too fast, or if wet , this can result in a spin.
 
Buy some Eibach camber adjustment bolts for the front, these are designed to work with lowering springs to bring the car back into geometry tollerances.

The Eibach anti roll bar kit is excellent for this car due to keeping the geometry much firmer under load but is sadly no longer available and very hard to find second hand.

Fit quality front tyres and if necessary increase the front track by 10mm with hubcentric spacers.
 
Buy some Eibach camber adjustment bolts for the front, these are designed to work with lowering springs to bring the car back into geometry tollerances.

The Eibach anti roll bar kit is excellent for this car due to keeping the geometry much firmer under load but is sadly no longer available and very hard to find second hand.

Fit quality front tyres and if necessary increase the front track by 10mm with hubcentric spacers.
Don't think camber bolts will be of much use to me as I have only 30mm lowered the car and have minimal tyre wear in the front. Also a bit of negative camber should actually help. Stiffer anti roll bar may be better in the dry but in the wet I can't get any cornering forces to cause the car to roll. Tires probably will be the way to go to improve thing as it stands.
 
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