General 1990 fiat ducato hard lights not working

[chrissysimmo51]

Hi folks I have a Fiat Ducato 1990 1.9 diesel. My hazard lights and indicators don't work I've replaced the flasher unit and hazard light switch but still not working any advice would be greatly appreciated

 

[Communicator]

Hi,
May I welcome you to the forum.
I used to own a 1990 Talbot Express, but the purchased official workshop manual was useless on electrical matters, as no diagrams were included.
Hence from first principles more than memory.
There should be two 12V supplies, permanent for the hazard warning, and ignition controlled for the indicators. These are selected by the hazard switch.
Try removing the flasher relay, and prove thay 12V is reaching the flasher unit. Using a test lamp connected to chassis for this test, will avoid misleading readings when a voltmeter is connected only via a high resistance. (Modern multimeters are very sensitive.)

If you have a supply to the flasher relay, with the hazard switch both on and off, then further investigation will be required.

 

[chrissysimmo51]

Thanks for the advice

 

[airwave]

Hi folks I have a Fiat Ducato 1990 1.9 diesel. My hazard lights and indicators don't work I've replaced the flasher unit and hazard light switch but still not working any advice would be greatly appreciated

Just read your post , are you still having problems ?

 

[chrissysimmo51]

Just read your post , are you still having problems ?

Yes

 

[airwave]

Yes

Hmmm , right . Well first off i'm sorry to hear that .

So tell me , what exactly is the problem , and what have you done so far ?

 

[chrissysimmo51]

Hmmm , right . Well first off i'm sorry to hear that .

So tell me , what exactly is the problem , and what have you done so far ?

Hi. First off the fuse for the indicators,wipers and fuel gauge blew which I replaced but the indicators and hazard lights still didn't work so I replaced the flasher relay but still nothing. I.ve tested a few things but not got anywhere. What's your thoughts.

 

[airwave]

Hi. First off the fuse for the indicators,wipers and fuel gauge blew which I replaced but the indicators and hazard lights still didn't work so I replaced the flasher relay but still nothing. I.ve tested a few things but not got anywhere. What's your thoughts.

Well , i have a 2000 Ducato , yeah okay a different model , but i'm just coming to the end of some quite major work . The work was focused in several areas , including electrical , where i found something , by accident that could account for your problems . I've come across it before about 6-10 year ago on another vehicle , but it's not for the faint hearted .
But first i want to check a few things first ! .

First off , when you say your indicators don't work , in what way do you mean . Have you checked the flashers , externally ? . Is there any sign of life , do they come on , but not flash , do any work at all ?
Internally , does the dashboard warning flasher light up ? , can you hear the flasher relay clicking ? . Or are they completely dead ? .

 

[airwave]

Oh , and does your horn work ?

The series 2 is basically a revamp series one . New shape , and bigger engines , but a lot of components are from the s1 . My guess (and yes , i'll be honest here , it is a guess) , is the wiring will pretty much be the same as well , and the horn is connected to the indicators , on the s2 . Failing that , as an over view , do you have any other electrical issues ?

 

[chrissysimmo51]

Hi again thanks for that. Firstly the horn works so that rules out the fuse for tha hazards. Secondly there is no dash lights and no clicking but I haven't checked outside to see if any of the lights actually work just assumed they didn't but I'll check tomorrow

 

[chrissysimmo51]

Oh and no other electrical problems

 

[airwave]

Hi again thanks for that. Firstly the horn works so that rules out the fuse for tha hazards. Secondly there is no dash lights and no clicking but I haven't checked outside to see if any of the lights actually work just assumed they didn't but I'll check tomorrow

Okay , well if my guess is right none of the front ones will work , but the rears should light up , they may even flash . Though i would expect the dashboard to light up too . The good news is your horn is working , if i was right it shouldn't , working to s2 wiring . Personally speaking , i think you can almost rule power feed out . It can happen , but as i say very rare . There is , as Communicator has previously said , two feeds . One ignition controlled , one direct , both should be fused separately , so the chance of those both going down at the same time is low . They are also both independently relayed , and you've already given one some grief , so we are sounding good there too . If there are no external lights at all , the next link in the chain is the selector . If the backs are lighting , you'd better prepare yourself for some hard work . By the way what are your skills regarding electrics ?

 

[chrissysimmo51]

Good morning.
Are you saying there is 2 separate relays 1 for the Hazard and 1 for the indicators, if so where are they both? I replaced the one in the glove box by the fuses but haven't found another one. Just been out to check and none of the external lights are working. As for my electric skill, not very good I can change a fuse, bulb, relay but that's about it

 

[airwave]

Good morning.
Are you saying there is 2 separate relays 1 for the Hazard and 1 for the indicators, if so where are they both? I replaced the one in the glove box by the fuses but haven't found another one. Just been out to check and none of the external lights are working. As for my electric skill, not very good I can change a fuse, bulb, relay but that's about it

Right well , the good news is , it's beginning to look like what i suspected is the problem is not actually the case . This is a major plus , because the cure is dramatic , made even more difficult by different components being in the way . It required good access to the wiring loom , and as luck would have it , when i came across it , a good portion of my engine bay was in bits for other work . This made my actual repair far easier .

Right and so now this is where it gets a little difficult , because though the s1 , and s2 use generic parts , the actual positions of some of these parts , does appear to be different . I should mention at this point , that mine is also a left hooker , and that does make a difference ! .

I'm pretty sure on my 2.8 i have two , a big red one which is the hazard lights , and another in the main stack , i can't remember the colour . The fuse box on my 2.8 is in the base of the glove box , with the relays directly below . However , access is gained by removal of the lower dash panel . Now i believe the earlier 2.5 also had the fuse box in the glove box base , so i'm hoping yours will also be , laid out the same . Now there is also an oddity with my van , in that some fuses don't actually control the functions , it's stated they should . So be careful here .

Find the fuse for the direction indicators (position 1 on the 2.8) , and follow that down to the relay stack . Be careful not to disturb the wiring anymore than you have to , and be gentle (This is the general theme here , be careful with all the wiring) . This will lead you to the second relay . The hazard fuse (position 17 on the 2.8) is separate , but i believe you already know that , and oddly there is even a fuse for the warning light , but don't worry about this one . It's also in position 1 , with the main direction indicators . The fuse rating should be 15a for both fuse positions , i would replace with brand new fuses and check the fuse is intact before fitting .

Now in my last post , i mentioned , i doubted the fused supply , would be the issue , and i still hold that view . But the fact , your relays are not functioning ( not making a noise) , does suggest there could be a problem with the direction switch , under the steering wheel . This is next in line following the fuses , and at 33 years old , and made of plastic , likely a worn part . It's also where the older hazard and indicator circuits came together . So this is where i would start , check for a supply here . More importantly a supply to the relays , but you're gonna need a test lamp . Should one not be available , a quick substitute would be a small bulb and wire . You can connect either way , just make sure you have a good earth on one end .

I would strongly advise sourcing a proper test lamp , it will make life much easier in future !

Now a quick explanation , a relay , very basically is a switch , but its a special switch . It switches a high current load , using a much lower current . This enables smaller core wires to be used in tight places like the dash , or steering console . Somewhere a thicker high current wire would have extreme difficulty fitting in to ! .

Another quick question . Has any work been done to the vehicles electrics , before this fault appeared ? . Fuses can blow through old age , but more often than not , there is an underlying reason for them to blow .

 

[airwave]

I have one of these ,

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Cheap , strong , and extremely simple , a huge help in these conditions . Mine is at least 20 years old ! !

 

[chrissysimmo51]

Ok thanks again there's a lot to process there I think I've got itI haven't had any work done since I've owned it (3years now) don't know about previous owners one thing I've just thought of but don't know if it would make a difference is when they did work the tick sound was very quiet could hardly here it. Ok so I need to follow the wire from the indicators fuse to find a relay and maybe the same for the Hazard lights and test them both. Also test the indicator stalk on the steering wheel which is something I haven't done. So somehow the hazard and indicators are connected is that right . I've attached a photo of the fuses/relays in the glove box if that helps

 

[Communicator]

@chrissysimmo51 ,

An interesting photo. My RHD 1990 manufactured Talbot Express used "torpedo" continental style fuses belw the glove box, and had the relays behind the instrument panel.

@airwave ,

The wiring in your more recent vehicle may differ from that on the OP's vehicle. However I am attaching a German originated diagram for the x230 indicators, to which I have added a colour code translation table. The diagram does appear to show the two flasher units that you have mentioned.

 

[airwave]

I've attached a photo of the fuses/relays in the glove box if that helps

Okay now this is an urgent warning , check that fuse in position 1 pronto ! . The photo i'm looking at , is showing a very unhappy looking fuse . Basically best i can tell , it looks like it's melting . If it's disfigured in anyway , sling it . I've had to deal with exactly that , and it resulted in my having to source a new fuse box . It took me 3 years to find , and eventually came from a vehicle breaker , in Lithuania . Trust me , you don't need that grief . That position appears to control one of your cooling fans , and with the weather the way it is , you need them both functioning .

Right , now back to the task in hand . My fuse box is similar , but has twice as many fuses , and your relays , look really difficult to get at . Can you get any better access , or is that it . Just examine the area carefully , but don't take anything apart just yet .

Now first off , ignore what i said about position of fuses , i'll stop that this end . Your electrical system looks to be far simpler , which is handy for a learner . Now don't take that the wrong way either , we all have to start somewhere .
I'm guessing the round cylinder type component is the flasher relay , but to be honest , i'm struggling to see a hazard flasher relay . Yes you're gonna have to follow wires here . Your direction indicators fuses are position 9 , with hazard flashers at position 12 . My guess is you could have a combined flasher unit , but we need to make sure , and the only way we can do that is through your fingers and eyes .
It's not unusual to have a quiet click , my own van has an extension bleeper , drives me mad it's so loud . Mind you , being a motorhome , it should have a step extension alarm , and it doesn't . Maybe the answer is right there ! .
Yes you've got it , older wiring did actually have the direction and hazard warning systems connected . That's how the hazard system connected to the actual bulbs , otherwise there would need to be 3 wires at each flasher bulb . It normally connects behind the dash , usually at the direction indicator selector , but it's not unheard of to actually connect at the flasher unit itself . This is another reason for having a combined relay , but that's a relatively new concept .

Yes , we need to find why the power is not flowing , and more importantly where it actually is . At this point we are trying to trouble shoot . The layout is quite simple , fuse , switch , relay , bulbs . The difficulty is we have 2 switches here , but by the same yard stick , we have a degree of redundancy . One circuit don't work , but we have another circuit working the same system . So why are both down , do you understand how i'm working here ? .

I wouldn't count on previous owners spending money either , my own van cost just short of 20 grand , and i've spent about 4 grand in the last 3 years , i bought my van in 2017 . Reason i've spent so much , lack of money being spent in the past .
It's an original can of worms ! .

The diagram does appear to show the two flasher units that you have mentioned.

Yes my friend , i've just discovered that . It does rather complicate things slightly , as i cant use my knowledge of my vans electrical system . I have to trouble shoot without a van , and that's a rather interesting prospect .
Yes i found it by accident , while i was trouble shooting my own system a couple of years ago . I found a loose wire in the engine bay while i was running a cooling fan override . It appeared to be an earth , but passed through the bulkhead . Took time , but i traced it back to the front fog light relay . Front fogs had stopped working the year before , and i found the wire then , i had simply just forgotten about it . I studied the relay and fuse system on my van , still don't know it all though . Nothing's marked , you know just to make life interesting , like ! .


It's well known amongst the older professional spanner throwers , Italians just don't do electrics .

 

[chrissysimmo51]

Once again thanks for all that.i have had a look behind the Speedo and around the steering wheel but can't see any relays. I'll have another dig around carefully but should I be removing the whole dashboard to get a look. Anyway that's probably something for me to tackle next weekend. A quick note I haven't been able to see any of the attachment. Have a good week. Any update I'll let you know

 

[Communicator]

Once again thanks for all that.i have had a look behind the Speedo and around the steering wheel but can't see any relays. I'll have another dig around carefully but should I be removing the whole dashboard to get a look. Anyway that's probably something for me to tackle next weekend. A quick note I haven't been able to see any of the attachment. Have a good week. Any update I'll let you know

@chrissysimmo51,

My apologies for unintentionally misleading you. My remark about the location of the relay location in my formerly owned Talbot Express, was meant as a comment on the difference between two vehicles of identical? age. The Talbot Express marque was a rebadge of the Peugeot J5.

From your photo, I think that you have found all of the relays that there are to be found. Please do not dismantle the vehicle in the abscence of further evidence.

Yes the attachment does appear to be missing. Sorry for the omission. I will add it to this post, but I think that it will be more appropriate to @airwave 's vehicle.

As an aid to resolving the 1/2 flasher module question on your vehicle, could you inspect old flasher unit for any rating. I have a Lucas 19FL FLASHER to hand it has the marking 0290, which I think means that it is contemporary with your vehicle. The rating is "12V.42/98W", so has your something like that on it. The 42 will mean a minimum of two indicator bulbs, and the 98 suggests that it would be OK with 4 off 21W indicator bulbs plus any side repeater indicators. If yours has similar markings, then only one flasher would be required.