OK so today I have drained the tank and the fuel filter, blown the fuel lines and put fresh fuel in, I also cracked the unions on the Injectors just in case they needed bleeding, still no go. When I check MS, the required Fuel pressure indicates <>400bar, is this correct, it is reporting an actual pressure of <>72. This is beginning to get me down, as much as I like the car I think it can go.
Technical 1.3 diesel refusing to start
- Thread starter Philjay51
- Start date
Currently reading:
Technical 1.3 diesel refusing to start
hi, yes - the rail pressures are supposed to be enormous
SEARCH on here is great..
I'll try and link to the thread where the MJ was choked with algae in the diesel
Charlie
SEARCH on here is great..
I'll try and link to the thread where the MJ was choked with algae in the diesel
it's this thread - !!
have another READ from post #50 to post#75
pretty much covers all you did last time,
and good luck..,
Charlie
Right, just been sitting here contemplating all things in the universe and reading from #50 to date. Although I cannot get my autodata to work I think my next job will be to check all the connections and make sure they are clean. One thing I have learnt with Italian cars (and we have a houseful) electrical contacts can be a serious problem. My garage pal was telling me that it is unlikely to be injectors but with the wiring, in as much as, if the signal from the regulator fails the ECU will shut down the injectors, so big can of HOLTS italian connector cleaner required from Halfrauds.
Hi,
If you are only getting 72 bar you could have a failed high pressure pump. This could be a slow failure related to your earlier issues. You need tobe careful working around high pressure diesel systems, if you get a leak and put your hand near it the pressure is high enough to inject diesel under the skin and that can cause serious issues up to necrosis requiring amputation.
Robert G8RPI.
If you are only getting 72 bar you could have a failed high pressure pump. This could be a slow failure related to your earlier issues. You need tobe careful working around high pressure diesel systems, if you get a leak and put your hand near it the pressure is high enough to inject diesel under the skin and that can cause serious issues up to necrosis requiring amputation.
Robert G8RPI.
agreed on the low pressure - but the vehicle was "just as dead" 18 months ago, and nothing was changed on this side of things..
OP said he had a niggling fault code last time, and once it ran , the code disappeared.
cleaning of electrical contact's was done around this point..,:chin:
agreed on the low pressure - but the vehicle was "just as dead" 18 months ago, and nothing was changed on this side of things..
OP said he had a niggling fault code last time, and once it ran , the code disappeared.
cleaning of electrical contact's was done around this point..,:chin:
Yep that's what I thought, it's the only thing left to do, by the way, I did change the HPP last time but I have decided that its not the issue, mainly because I don't want to change it.
It's a funny thing, my father was a very good engineer, I had a lot of time for his advice. One thing I remember discussing with him after I had bought a Triumph 2.5 injector was the possible issues with diesel injectors and the pressure that they run at, not to mention the serious and permanent damage they can cause you. Thanks for the concern.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2009
- Messages
- 19,492
- Points
- 3,295
When loosening a diesel injector HP connection ideally don't do it. But if its the only option, ALWAYS have many layers of cloth over the area at the moment the joint is "cracked". The pressure drops almost instantly but initially is highly dangerous and will easily punch though unprotected skin.
I did this on a VW TDI to find the faulty injector. The good ones make the engine run rougher or even stop. The bad one made no difference.
Common rail systems are harder to diagnose generally "cracking" a connector won't give any clues.
I did this on a VW TDI to find the faulty injector. The good ones make the engine run rougher or even stop. The bad one made no difference.
Common rail systems are harder to diagnose generally "cracking" a connector won't give any clues.
Sweetsixteen
Established member
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2014
- Messages
- 1,109
- Points
- 204
Coming in late here.
400 bar sounds very low for this engine. Double that and you're nearer the mark. (Some modern common rail systems run at up to four times that).
Although the multijet might run once started, I would check that 400 bar figure again. It looks to me as though the problem could centre around the hp pump.
400 bar sounds very low for this engine. Double that and you're nearer the mark. (Some modern common rail systems run at up to four times that).
Although the multijet might run once started, I would check that 400 bar figure again. It looks to me as though the problem could centre around the hp pump.
Now bear in mind I know FA about diesels and the more time I spend around them the less I like them. I was using MES and was looking at the required Pressure setting against actual, so from memory the required pressure said <>400 bar and actual went up to <>76 while cranking. I have tried a different HPP in the past and it made no difference, thats not to say it is not knackered now. Back to my spares box and try a different HPP, but I don't hold out much hope on it TBH.
In my mind I am convinced its an electrical issue.
Errr, well I did crack the joints on the fue rail and the injectors to check for flow and potential bleed, I drained the system. What I notice was that they al flowed except number one, I did not think too much about it but could this be a possible issue?
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2009
- Messages
- 19,492
- Points
- 3,295
The pressure is effectively zero when engine isn't running (oil wont compress) so any retained pressure instantly drops when any joints are loosened.
One injector not showing any pressure drop with the engine running could be that it is venting pressure away so much that the fuel pump cant keep up.
My TDI (not common rail) had been hunting for a while at motorways speed with no solution found. My Mrs used it locally with no problems, then one day it leaked sump oil onto the drive. I checked it out and found the sump full to overflowing and smelling of diesel.
Oil drained and refilled immediately which was when I did the injector drop test (which I had asked to be done by garages) who had all failed to find the cause of the problem.
Common rail is different so rather than one injector affecting it's own cylinder only, one can drop the whole rail pressure and stop the engine.
One injector not showing any pressure drop with the engine running could be that it is venting pressure away so much that the fuel pump cant keep up.
My TDI (not common rail) had been hunting for a while at motorways speed with no solution found. My Mrs used it locally with no problems, then one day it leaked sump oil onto the drive. I checked it out and found the sump full to overflowing and smelling of diesel.
Oil drained and refilled immediately which was when I did the injector drop test (which I had asked to be done by garages) who had all failed to find the cause of the problem.
Common rail is different so rather than one injector affecting it's own cylinder only, one can drop the whole rail pressure and stop the engine.
Sticking injector?
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2009
- Messages
- 19,492
- Points
- 3,295
The multistage injectors used on TDIs and pre Common Rail Fiats, are difficult to test without a full powered test rig to watch the spray pattern. Generally they are ok or not ok. Mine was absolutely not ok so was swapped out and the engine was fine.
Today's Common Rail injectors are different again some use piezo crystal technology to control the fuel flow. I have no idea if they can stick open but if one does it will prevent the rail from properly pressurising.
Just a thought have you tried Easy Start? If the engine runs with that stuff sprayed into the inlet you know at least there is adequate compression.
According to eLearn, the pipes and associated seals from the fuel manifold to the injectors must be replaced with new whenever the injectors are disturbed. If a replacement injector is fitted, then it will also be necessary to run diagnostics to recalibrate the ECU to the new injector.
Sadly I'd have thought the cost of even a single injector replacement on a 12yr old Panda (aftermarket ones are listed at £270 each exchange from ECP) would be close to the value of the car, with no guarantee as to the integrity of the remaining three.
I recall one chap here having to replace all four after 70k miles at a cost of c. €4000.
Last edited:
No sure what to think about injectors, I went to see Dave Croft, as suggested by somebody here but to be honest he did not tell me anything I have not heard on here. Yes runs well on Easy Start, I wonder if I can stick a pipe into the air inlets and run it like that
. I am still trying to get my copy of Autodata running, once I have that running I can do a proper check on the sensors etc. If all this fails I think, as its so bloody cold I will pass it on to Dave or see if my garage mate wants to give it a go.I understand the cost of new ones, I had a set modified for my Alfa and nearly died at the cost, however, I do have access to a set removed from a running car so I would give one of those a go.
Nothing to lose now but your time, I guess. I'm not sure how you'd go about calibrating the ECU to a secondhand injector, but it should at least start and run without this, even if its emissions and mpg fall a little short of what they should be. And it'll likely run even if you don't replace all the pipes and seals as Fiat suggests, but please do check carefully for leaks before taking it on the road; spilt diesel could literally spell death for some unfortunate motorcyclist.
I do hope you manage to get it running again; too many cars are now effectively rendered scrap by these sorts of failures, which are essentially doing to older vehicles what corrosion used to do twenty years ago.
Good luck, and let us know how you get on.
burrowsdeano
Member
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2012
- Messages
- 214
- Points
- 109
I work on loads of these things and if you have low fuel pressure it can only be one of a few things. First thing is make sure you are getting around 5-8 bar fuel pressure from the tank pump. If that's ok then remove the fuel pressure regulator from the right side of the injector rail, will either be 2 star drive screws or one big nut depending on the engine. One type has a small rubber seal on the end which starts to fall to bits. If it has replace it with a proper one because normal rubber seals won't put up with the diesel. The other type has a fine metal filter on the end which gets covered in crap, give it a spray with brake cleaner and blow clean with an airline. The high pressure pump seals fail inside the pump, you can get genuine Bosch kits on eBay for about £20 and it's not too bad to do. Loads of videos on YouTube if you struggle, sometimes the main seal on the body of the pump can fail and can then cause fuel to leak into the engine oil so have a good look over the pump. The last thing is injectors but it's very rare for them to cause a low pressure issue. Just a standard leak off check should show if an injector is giving problems with pressure. You need minimum of 200 bar for it to even begin to fire and should be around 250-300 bar on idle and go up to around 1500 bar when revved
