Hello chaps,
I was considering blanking off the EGR valve on my stilo & multipla to stop the manifolds gunging up with the black stuff and stopping the black smoke on acceleration. Having read about it there seems to be some good reasons to do this. eg Here's a quote from someone on ebay:


EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculating) valve basically recirculates spent gases back into the engine to be re-burnt, this only creates problems at the m.o.t station and when driving your vehicle on the road. Once it has been removed, the black smoke will go, you will get more mpg and b.h.p and the engine will run cooler, lets face it , that's why an inter-cooler is fitted, to cool the air entering the engine so why heat it up again with spent exhaust gases??. Using a thin blanking plate alone is a cheap bodge, and one end of the egr is still connected to the exhaust, which enables gases to reach the egr and clogging up the pipework, which cause it's own problems so that is why I removed mine totally and blanked it off on each manifold, allowing the engine to run cleaner like the Shoguns do, which I did used to own. I have never once regretted fitting this kit on my 2.8 tdi Pajero over 4 years ago, the engine is more responsive, there is no huge cloud of black smoke behind me, there is no turbo flat spot, it passes the mot emissions test each year with no problems, and it's all round alot better to drive, and especially to tow with.

So I was wondering if there is a blanking plate available for the JTD, or would simply disconnecting the electrical connector do the same job (to ensure the valve is always closed). Anyone tried this ?

Thoughts appreciated.
RRP

EGR's are fitted to stop Nox gasses being expelled into the atsmophere.

So for all the useful advice freely available on here, for the sake of a little searching, you'd rather take the advice of some idiot on eBay

Well, I have done loads of searching of info on this site, including the very useful guide to cleaning out the EGR valve, which I did and was amazed at the levels of black gunk which I had to clean out (and which didn't come off my skin for a week !).
I have also noted comments that although EGR systems reduce small amounts of harmful gasses, they may also increase others (if the car can pass its MOT with the EGR disabled I suspect it cannot be a massive factor).

I do not think the guy on ebay is an idiot, neither do I think people who argue for keeping EGR system are idiots. I was just asking for opinions.

robbie-rocket-pants said:

although EGR systems reduce small amounts of harmful gasses, they may also increase others

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Harmful yes, small amounts ... well if 10% of diesel owners thought the same way....thats alot of very harmful Nox gasses. IMO its a moral issue, personally I wouldn't but its your car so make up your own mind.

If its opinions or facts you want then the advert is incorrect, the combustion chamber temperature is REDUCED through egr, by reducing the amount of oxygen in the combustion chamber, this reduces the internal temperature of the engine. By blocking off or removing the egr the internal temperature will be increased, the advert confuses inlet charge temperature and internal temperature. Regarding shoguns, these had a problem with the fuel management put in during turbo boost, and many shoguns could not pass the mot without adjusting the fuel pump, because they were not designed to be blipped in the required way for the mot. The mot full throttle rev test is the only way to statically put the engine under load without a rolling road (which is not mot equipment), it is a flawed test as no engine in real life accelerates in this way whilst driving. There will be a small increase in power and fuel economy, but nox gases will be massively increased, and this is a greenhouse gas.

Thanks guys.

Her's a quote from elsewhere on the web:
Since diesel engines are unthrottled, EGR does not lower throttling losses in the way that it does for SI engines. However, exhaust gas (largely carbon dioxide and water vapor) has a higher specific heat than air, and so it still serves to lower peak combustion temperatures. There are trade offs however. Adding EGR to a diesel reduces the specific heat ratio of the combustion gases in the power stroke. This reduces the amount of power that can be extracted by the piston. EGR also tends to reduce the amount of fuel burned in the power stroke. This is evident by the increase in particulate emissions that corresponds to an increase in EGR. Particulate matter (mainly carbon) that is not burned in the power stroke is wasted energy. Stricter regulations on particulate matter(PM) call for further emission controls to be introduced to compensate for the PM emissions introduced by EGR. The most common is particulate filters in the exhaust system that result in reduced fuel efficiency. Since EGR increases the amount of PM that must be dealt with and reduces the exhaust gas temperatures and available oxygen these filters need to function properly to burn off soot, automakers have had to consider injecting fuel and air directly into the exhaust system to keep these filters from plugging up.

EGR deletion in diesel engines is considered justifiable by a wide range of people, including the environmentally conscious. Although deleting the EGR system results in increased NOx levels, hydrocarbon emissions, Particulates, Carbon monoxide and Carbon dioxide are drastically reduced. Furthermore, EGR deletion results in an increase in fuel economy as high as 25%. Exhaust gas recirculated back into the cylinders adds wear-inducing contaminants and causes an increase engine oil acidity, which can result in an inefficient, poorly running engine. The increased level of soot also creates the need for diesel particulate filters to prevent environmental contamination.



So my understanding is that although EGR reduces the oxides of nitrogen, it increases carbon particulate matter (carcenogenic ?) and reduces efficiency. Other cars (eg the Citroen C4) have a depollution system to get rid of these particulates, but the Stilo doesn't. I suspect that when the JTD engine was brand new and being certified it looked good, but as they are used and become full of gunk they become more of a polluting engine with the EGR becoming a liability, especially if it gets stuck.

I don't think my conscience would be nagging me too much if I blanked off the EGR valve, but I guess in a perfect world I'd clean out the valve & inlet manifold regularly.

Standing back for the flack....

Jtd meets phase 3 emission standards, and if serviced regularly and maintained by cleaning the system works well, its when it isnt cleaned this can cause problems. Diesel particulate filters on fiat vehicles are used on phase 4 emission standard engines, and use the filter to trap the particulates released by the phase 3 emission engines.

Particulates are rather nasty little buggers thought to be a cause of respitory diseases, but they do not damage the atmosphere in the way nox does. Phase 4 is the best way of dealing with both problems, however retro fitting it is not an option. Phase 3 is significantly cleaner than phase 2 but not a patch on phase 4 or 5.

robbie-rocket-pants said:

I don't think my conscience would be nagging me too much if I blanked off the EGR valve, but I guess in a perfect world I'd clean out the valve & inlet manifold regularly.

Standing back for the flack....

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No flak...as said its your decision. NumanR has kindly told you the (truthful) facts which I hope you take onboard compared to a few other 'doubtful' sources

May I also suggest you read up on EOBD legislation, stilo did not need a DPF but new cars do as legislation gets tighter....something I might add Fiat are very good at and ahead of the game unlike other manufactures.

I think NOx (especially the N2O) destroys ozone layer. (Remember how the big fad worry in the 1980's was the hole in the Ozone layer). But disconnecting the EGR reduces the CO2 (affecting the new fad worry of greenhouse gasses and global warming).
poo..I think I'll have a beer.

You have obviously made up your mind so just blank the EGR off.

robbie-rocket-pants said:

But disconnecting the EGR reduces the CO2 (affecting the new fad worry of greenhouse gasses and global warming).

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The only way you'll reduce CO² is by reduced use of carbon based fuels which means driving less or making your engine more fuel efficient.

Blocking the EGR certainly wont do that

You also seem to miss the point that doing so will mean the engine would be running outside of its designed operating parameters which can hardly be a good thing (I can tell you from direct experience it actually doesn't run as well).

I suppose you could argue that if the EGR becomes defective then if you simply block it then it will save YOU the cost of fixing it but that's a decidedly selfish motivation and as said wont benefit the the engine particularly either

Your choice :shrug:

Taking the EGR off on a regular basis, is a drag and takes its unfair share of skin off your knuckles. Mines just been cleaned for the first time - just past the 100k mark and to be honest I cant detect a lot of difference in either performance or consumption - still averaging 45/46 mpg on a 40 mile trip to and from work. EGR was almost totally choked when it came off - most of the carbon came off easily as it was dry and not gungy. I also used a can of Wynns EGR cleaner, which literally washed the carbon off. The added benefit of the Wynns is that its designed to be sprayed into the intake system whilst the engine is still cold and hence is circulated through the EGR. Assume regular use will prevent excessive build up.

whats the best tool to use to block off the EGR valve?

EDIT: Not permanently, mine is deffective (I think)

Don't think there's a tool for it. People on here who've blocked it for test purposes have made a blanking gasket from a sardine tin or similar.

Oakley28 said:

whats the best tool to use to block off the EGR valve?

EDIT: Not permanently, mine is deffective (I think)

Click to expand...

this thread should help

Argonought said:

this thread should help

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Good man, have to find a tin big enough to make a template now ... best get eating some stuff.

Fiat make there own blanking plate for the JTD.

Rushy said:

Fiat make there own blanking plate for the JTD.

Click to expand...

Really? Could you supply us with a link to it?


I agree with robbie-rocket-pants, blocking the EGR off completely on older cars is deffinately a good idea. No more cleaning the crap out from the EGR, manifold and no more MAP sensor(turbo, lacking power) issues caused by it being blocked up with crap. Throttle is more responsive and less smoke when excellerating hard. I've done almost 2000 miles now and the manifold is still as shinny as the day I cleaned it.

IMO its the best mod you can do to an old JTD for under a fiver.
[ame="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EGR-blanking-plate-VW-SEAT-SKODA-KIA-FORD-AUDI-VOLVO-/120686493124?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM=&hash%3Ditem1c1979bdc4"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EGR-blanking-plate-VW-SEAT-SKODA-KIA-FORD-AUDI-VOLVO-/120686493124?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM=&hash%3Ditem1c1979bdc4[/ame]=

i did mine the other week and its loads better now i used a beer can