Hi All, Firstly im new to the forum so deepest apologies if im in the wrong section posting this, i have tried looking and felt this was the best place to ask.

I'm looking at buyin a GT Punto and the guy said shes smoking, he said powers there in the car but the turbo pressure i high. He Claims the rings are gone which to me isnt a major deal but is there any other problems that could be causing the car to smoke??

I havent gone to see it yet so im unsure of the smoke colour as i know it could be just a simple problem like the turbo on its way out.

Does anyone have advice on this??? I know i can pressure test across the cylinders so whats the approximate pressure necessary across the chambers?

Also would there be head issues etc. Sorry for all the questions but i want to know what i might be getting myself into on the buy.

Thanks in advance and any help is much appreciated.

Richie.

cars smoke for few reasons.... first off is it blue smoke or white smoke, blue indicates burning oil whereas white is water - clearly neither is good bar a little bit of white while warming up, thats normal..

Really depends when and how it smokes as to how you would try and decide why it is smoking.

Piston rings is a big job no matter what anyone says, you are stripping an engine right down to change them. If you are not doing yourself expect to pay A LOT! Blowing piston rings will usually result in quite alot of smoke and constant smoke

valves seals can be a reason, these tend to result in a large puff of smoke when first started - oil sat in the head around the valves slowly seeps into cylinders while it sits not running and thenwhen you start it all burns off resulting in big plume of smoke that then dissipates - once they get real bad will smoke all the time.

oil can get in from turbo seals, this will show by giving a plume of smoke when revved hard stationary or if driving usually just after you come off the gas from a pull you will get a cloud of smoke behind the car, again it will be not that bad at first and get worse and worse.

oil can get in from a blown head gasket - this is harder to nail down as it depends where and how the gasket goes and how badly its gone as to whether it would even get oil in the combustion chamber or not.

Head gasket can also let water in resulting in teh white smoke although this does tend to settle down once the engine is hot.

So I say go and have a look, make sure the car is cold and not been running, fire it up and check for smoke, give it some revs and look for smoke, let it warm up and does it still smoke, some more revving. If its not really bad take it for a drive and do some full throttle pulls and check mirrors for smoke during and after.

good explanation blu

what if it smokes on startup while engine is cold and stops when hot

usually thats what i am describing with the valve seals... you get smoke at first and then it clears cause oil seeps down the seals while the car is sat then once that oil burns off it clears up (of course until they get really really bad but you get poor compression and bad running before that usually)

blu73 said:

usually thats what i am describing with the valve seals... you get smoke at first and then it clears cause oil seeps down the seals while the car is sat then once that oil burns off it clears up (of course until they get really really bad but you get poor compression and bad running before that usually)

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Really appreciate the info. Hoping to have a look at this tomorrow evening so i will check everything you've mentioned.

what IF the seller has the car warmed up?? He has said its driving and no loss of power. I assume with damaged rings that the power wouldn't be delivering correctly (had previous honda wiht damaged rings)

Then as i stated he said the cars boosting high, excuse my stupidity but is it possible that the boost being up too high has blown the turbo seals??

Thanks for everything so far really appreciate it.

well if its warm i would still have a look and ask to go back and see it again and say you want it to be cold and not just driven, if they have some kind of problem with that they are hiding something, just walk away.

boost is not going to be affected by any seals no, hard to say if it is overboosting without knowing whats been done to the car and whether it is running (or supposed to be running) stock boost. keep an eye on the gauge under load and see what it does - from memory a bone stock car spiikes to about 1.2 bar and settles to 0.8bar

On a stock car the boost is controled via pierburg valve.. so basically a vac lines comes off the turbo, upto a valve mount in the bulkhead behind a plastic cover and from that back down to the wastegate on the turbo. any leaks on this will result in not as much pressure getting to the wastegate and it won't open whenit should, a leak would mean it needs more boost to open the wastegate.

or the wastegate could be a bit sticky and so not opening properly.

the pierburg could be bypassed and in its place a little bleed valve called a dawes controller, this is a little mechancial bleed valve and by fitting one the boost climbs quicker than standard - these can normally be adjusted with a screw that blleds less or more air - the more air bled out the higher the boost will be. it cannot make a car run less boost, only more. These can fail and does weird stuff to boost - depends how it breaks.

or there is full aftermarket electronically controlled jobbies - prob won't have that but clearly it can be set too high or it can stop working properly.

So pretty much ask if boost control is stock or has a bleed valve or anything on it. If its stock its gonna be simple to fix really, bleed valves are not expensive either but if it has one thats failed you can prob just remove it and it work properly. If the turbo seals are gone all this needs to come off to get the turbo out for a rebuild anyway.

Piston rings... well i kinda doubt it will be rings myself. Its not likely to run really nice with a blowing ring or rings no and it will be hella smokey. Its more likely turbo seals and/or HG and/or valves seals.

End of the day just go see, you will get the feeling its been looked after at all, trust your senses. And check for rot and rust - its the biggest enemy of the mk1 punto. sills, floors, boot floor and rear inner arches. You could argue if you really want a mk1 and you find a good solid shell for reasonable money thats probably the best starting point over one that runs nice and is mechanically sound. Its rust repairs and bodywork thats hugely expensive if you cannot do it yourself. most mechanical things anyone can do themselves with a bit of patience

So....

Went to view the car and here is the outcome. Bodywork is straight enough for the year a couple of dings nothing a good dent company wont be able to handle. Minor surface rust but nothing that a good sanding of the underside and some waxoil wont fix

Engine is as sweet as a nut really well looked after but heres the glitch. Guys a mechanic and has had it checked by many others and they cant seem to find the issue with the smoke.

Start her up shes all good and small bit of steam which is nothing unusual she has good boost BUT when shes warm the boost is spiking on it. Shes overboosting to about 1.4bar but doesnt settle back down. Thsi is when she gets smokey so i assume the turbo seals possibly??? And the overboost could be bad vacuum lines and actuator no???

Any help on this one is greatly appreciated as i'm willing to buy if its not too bad. I didnt tell the owner im buying as i dont want the stones driven outta it for the next week till my collection day.

Sounds like it could be a decent buy by this, smoking at full chat only is most likely turbo seals yes.

yes vac line perished or not sealing could do that.. they are pretty hard to get on and off to replace due to access so i wouldn't be surprised if they are factory originals.

did you find out if boost control was factory, it could be the pierburg valve isn't working (or working properly).

By what you have said I think i would be happy to go ahead an buy - like i said before rust and rot is the real enemy, particularly if the engine runs really well and its just this little bit of smoke, you could even drive it perfectly safely and just not go full throttle and you won't get full boost.

If you go ahead what i would do is change them lines first - if that doesn't work then take the lines off the pierburg and use a dawes boost controller instead (leaving the peirburg electrical connection connected still). Really there is not much else it can be, its a simple system boost control, all that can go wrong is the actuator itself, teh pierburg valve or a leak in the lines. Then once you are happy its boosting normally then get the turbo rebuilt and clean out all the pipework and intercooler as they will have oil residue in them.

blu73 said:

Sounds like it could be a decent buy by this, smoking at full chat only is most likely turbo seals yes.

yes vac line perished or not sealing could do that.. they are pretty hard to get on and off to replace due to access so i wouldn't be surprised if they are factory originals.

did you find out if boost control was factory, it could be the pierburg valve isn't working (or working properly).

By what you have said I think i would be happy to go ahead an buy - like i said before rust and rot is the real enemy, particularly if the engine runs really well and its just this little bit of smoke, you could even drive it perfectly safely and just not go full throttle and you won't get full boost.

If you go ahead what i would do is change them lines first - if that doesn't work then take the lines off the pierburg and use a dawes boost controller instead (leaving the peirburg electrical connection connected still). Really there is not much else it can be, its a simple system boost control, all that can go wrong is the actuator itself, teh pierburg valve or a leak in the lines. Then once you are happy its boosting normally then get the turbo rebuilt and clean out all the pipework and intercooler as they will have oil residue in them.

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Shes bog standard as the seller put it. It's never been tuned and he'd done the timing belt and waterpump on her and he said a couple of weeks after she start spiking in the boost and then shortly after it was the plume of smoke on warm engine. Its original irish car and has been well minded by the look of it.

Do you recommend anywhere to get the turbo rebuilt and a rough cost. I've no issues shipping the part to uk to be done provided i have good feedback from someone whose delth with the person/company.

Thanks for all the help so far really appreciate it. Now im hoping that the insurance company will insure her classic for me being 20years old

Cost of rebuild is hard to tie down, as it depends one what they find when they dismantle it.. I would say on average you are looking around 150-250 pounds sterling but you must understand they might find something worse when they dismantle (eg. crack in the housing). Worst case you are looking at a brand new turbo which without looking i would guess to be about 400 pounds sterling. My main advice on this would be that there will be someone reasonably locally, its best to ask some local car guys and/or clubs for recommendations. And then ring around a few places and ask them for a estimate for rebuild and a quote for just a replacement turbo.

Alternatively you could buy a 2nd hand turbo but i don't really recommend that, its too much of an unknown and can end up just being a waste of money.

blu73 said:

Cost of rebuild is hard to tie down, as it depends one what they find when they dismantle it.. I would say on average you are looking around 150-250 pounds sterling but you must understand they might find something worse when they dismantle (eg. crack in the housing). Worst case you are looking at a brand new turbo which without looking i would guess to be about 400 pounds sterling. My main advice on this would be that there will be someone reasonably locally, its best to ask some local car guys and/or clubs for recommendations. And then ring around a few places and ask them for a estimate for rebuild and a quote for just a replacement turbo.

Alternatively you could buy a 2nd hand turbo but i don't really recommend that, its too much of an unknown and can end up just being a waste of money.

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Perfect no problem so. I'll start as soon as i have it in my driveway cant wait been a long time looking for one over here

look forward to seeing some pictures

Hi Richard , hope you get it ??

Steve gt said:

Hi Richard , hope you get it ??

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Turns out i cant get the car.

Issue im facing in Ireland is the cars over 15years old so nowhere will insure it for less then 3k which is a joke considering i have a daily driver and will use this maybe 2months of the year. My current insurer wont insure it cause of its age.

Tried classic car companies and im told by one they wont insure a mass produced car regardless of age and another tells me they wont insure it as it has to be 25years old. So im caught in a corner of buying it to sit up for 5years which i refuse to do.

or fork out 3k for insurance which i also refuse to do. So anyone any thoughts of how i might insure it before i call the deal off with the seller???

thats a new one... I never been to Ireland but I find it hard to believe everyone has cars under 15 years old!! Have you tried calling some other normal insurance companies and not your current or classic ones?

Seems utterly mental that does, when i had a GT over here in England I just had insurance from a normal run of the mill insurer, £400 fully comp. Adrian Flux cover Ireland I believe, try them.

that's a shame , thought it may be expensive ??, try Adrian flux they insured mine . if is in good condition might be worth a buy anyway , if you can store it , they are getting rarer every year . could one of your parents insure it and you as a named driver ?

blu73 said:

thats a new one... I never been to Ireland but I find it hard to believe everyone has cars under 15 years old!! Have you tried calling some other normal insurance companies and not your current or classic ones?

Seems utterly mental that does, when i had a GT over here in England I just had insurance from a normal run of the mill insurer, £400 fully comp. Adrian Flux cover Ireland I believe, try them.

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Rang over 10 insurers yesterday and the only quote i got was from chill insurance for 2950 as an everyday car with my NCB mirrored to the policy.

My everyday car is 16years old but my insurance company cant refuse it as im already insured with them. But they can try it next year if i dont change the car. Truly is expensive to do.

I've tried having my dad insured on it but again nowhere will say yes as the cars age and his ncb is tied up on his daily driver. Over here insurance companies do everything they can to not insure you. My renewal was 650 and anywhere i rang was at least double that.

I'll try Adrian Flux, Are they in northern ireland or mainland uk? I was told thru a classic car club that an insurer in the north will cover down here but noone seems to know who they were

Flux are based mainland UK. Read somewhere they cover Ireland but not sure if it was just Northern Ireland or not.

All sounds like a right pain in the arse to be a car person over there!!

blu73 said:

Flux are based mainland UK. Read somewhere they cover Ireland but not sure if it was just Northern Ireland or not.

All sounds like a right pain in the arse to be a car person over there!!

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I've banged them over an email seeing if they cover. Fingers crossed.

And yep its very hard being a car person over here. Imports have a premium on your insurance, modifications arent accepted by most insurers without an engineers report, cars written off very easily with economic costs to insurers. Its ridiculous.

Appreciate the help!

Time to move sounds like haha