Car: Punto 2001 1,2 16v

Problem: Car will not start after overheating due to a coolant leak. Engine turns but besides a little puff from time to time, there's no life

Checked: Plugs are clean and all smell of gasoline after turning over. Leads are new (the old were TOAST after the overheating - never seen that before). Battery's good. Ignition module seems OK (don't know any other way to check it besides checking resistance with a multimeter). Fuel pump runs when tested.

Tried Multiecuscan but I have the KKL cable, so the only thing I could check was the Ignition system. No codes in memory. I will order the ELM cable, but won't have it until next week.

Do any of you have ideas about what to check?

Thanks in advance,
Peter

Greetings.

Firstly do some basic check's.
Eg

Is there' spark to the 'plugs.
Is there' fuel getting to 'injectors..

'If yes to both...then have 'a compression test 'done.
If its overheated badly..head gasket couid be 'toast'.

pfdk said:

Car will not start after overheating due to a coolant leak. Engine turns but besides a little puff from time to time, there's no life...

Click to expand...

Welcome! :wave:

It sounds -- as my esteemed colleague, Mr oldhammer, has suggested -- that the head gasket is gone.

So, a few questions:

1. Where was the "coolant leak" from?
2. How much coolant did the engine lose?
3. Did you then carry on driving; or was the car stopped immediately and recovered?
4. When you say "a little puff" -- is this of smoke (smells of oil) or steam (odour-free); and what colour is this -- white, blue, black, etc.? And where from?
5. Although not a definitive symptom: what colour and consistency is the gunk in the oil filler cap?
6. Finally, when you try and start the car, what happens to the coolant in the header tank? Does it begin to bubble?

The 16v, whilst not really a fragile engine -- especially if not shown lots of affection (i.e. regular servicing and maintenance) -- can be a moody beast; and does not like to be anything than full to the correct level of the correct mix of coolant. Leaks, or airlocks, can -- and will -- cause all sorts of problems (a head-gasket failure being the likely one, I'm afraid...).

If this is the case, it is not the end of the world; but it might make a big dent in your wallet. Firstly, you need to find out why it leaked, and sort that -- otherwise, renewing the head gasket will be a pointless exercise. Then you need the head itself skimmed (optionally replacing the valve seats and stem seals, and lapping the valves in, etc. -- and I'd replace the cam carrier gasket at the same time...); before replacing it, along with a new thermostat and water pump... -- and, if you don't know when it was last changed, the timing belt.

Anyway, first step: get a compression test done -- wet and dry -- and report back.

And, if none of this makes any sense, please, please ask. There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers -- and it is very rare to find any such on this section of the Forum. :worship:

Thanks!

Thanks for your replies.

A bit more information:
- Leak is from coolant pipe near water pump, not from engine. All coolant was lost. For some strange reason, Engine Temp gauge did not rise until the engine died.
- Battery OK
- Oil is fine (smells a bit 'burnt', but no impurities at all) and no oil seems to have been lost.
- No gunk at oil filler
- HG was changed a few weeks before this. No problem (water or oil leaks) at this time.
- There's an air leak in the intake pipe. We found this when the HG was changed, a new was ordered, but this occured before it arrived
- No spark. Plugs look OK, new leads, ignition module seems OK.
- Fuel pump runs when checked from Multiecuscan and plugs indicate that fuel does reach the engine.

Multiecuscan reports spark advance to be -78 degrees. This sounds wrong to me. I'm still waiting for the ELM cable, so I can only read the Ignition Computer.

I'll try to test compression (though I have three testers, none of them includes adaptors for the slim plugs in the Punto)

About to disappear: so I'll be brief...!

A couple of quick questions... -- and thank you for answering my others so fully... -- you've obviously been very thorough...!

1. Why was the head gasket replaced?
2. Have you tried leaving the battery unplugged, to try and reset the ECU?

-78° does sound very weird. Something in the back of my head tells me that it should be lowish (i.e. -10° to -20°) -- but I shall see if I can confirm this. [EDIT] As a very quick test, starting the car from cold(ish): I get less than 10°; and then up (down?!) to just below -20°, with a little bit of gas.... :chin:

I can't get my head round why a HG failure should be producing what appears to be an electrical fault, though....

PS: Those deep, almost bottomless, spark-plug pits are a pain, aren't they...? :bang:

Hi again,

Well, the HG was changed because the car used coolant, though relatively slowly. At the same time it had a pronounced hesitation (It must be said, that when I took over the car, it was in a bad state and barely running) and the coolant loss was getting worse over time. After the HG change, it was running much better - until the coolant pipe developed a leak, that is.

I'm pretty sure this is not a result of another BHG. I think the intake leak is the source of the hesitation, and that the engine management may have run amok causing the extreme spark timing.

I have had the battery disconnected for an extended time, turned the key with the battery disconnected etc, but I don't Think that has reset the ECU.

And yes to your PS - if they were any deeper, we might as well insert the plugs from the bottom!

homeward said:

-78° does sound very weird. Something in the back of my head tells me that it should be lowish (i.e. -10° to -20°) -- but I shall see if I can confirm this. [EDIT] As a very quick test, starting the car from cold(ish): I get less than 10°; and then up (down?!) to just below -20°, with a little bit of gas.... :chin:


PS: Those deep, almost bottomless, spark-plug pits are a pain, aren't they...? :bang:

Click to expand...

Hi,
IIRC the 16V is timed from mid-stroke..NOT TDC.. so you would expect an "unusual" figure,

did the engine run well until this recent issue?,
(no chances of incorrectly connected cables after HG repair..??),

Charlie

Hi.
Is there any evidence of a 'spark' from the plugs..
Can you hear the fuel pump 'priming' thus when ignition is first 'switched on'

With out this info we are going to be playing a guessing game..

Please help us to help you..

Charlie,

Good point. The car was running fine up until the breakdown (what an explanation: "everything was fine until it suddently wasn't"). Checked cables: everything seems fine.

There was still some hesitation from time to time, but I think this could very well be the intake leak.

Oldhammer,

No spark. I can turn on the fuel pump via Multiecuscan, and the plugs smell of gas after trying to start it.

Right OK..

So we are looking at no 'spark.. so let's ignore all this head gasket malarky for now..

Have you checked the connector that goes into the coil pack..
A loose..or I'll fitted air box can work this connection loose..

Its actually caught me out..and I got a free exercise work out pushing it off the road..

So its worth a check...

Next thing..check plug to crank sensor...unplug it and re connect it...

Oldhammer,

Thanks for your suggestions. I'll check connectors in the morning.

Is there any way to reset the ignition computer? Still baffled by the spark advance...

'Its pointless trying to reset anything.

You've simply got a 'situation here where somethings lost a feed 'whether it'd be live or negative..

Check over all the connections making sure these are good..

Then go from there..

Keep this thread updated and we will try to help..

Rember you are just looking why there's no spark..ignore everything else for now or you will end up chasing your own tail so to speak..

Ignore if you wish..

homeward said:

-78° does sound very weird. Something in the back of my head tells me that it should be lowish (i.e. -10° to -20°) -- but I shall see if I can confirm this. [EDIT] As a very quick test, starting the car from cold(ish): I get less than 10°; and then up (down?!) to just below -20°, with a little bit of gas.... :chin:

Click to expand...

varesecrazy said:

Hi,
IIRC the 16V is timed from mid-stroke..NOT TDC.. so you would expect an "unusual" figure,

Click to expand...

I know what you're saying: but this is as MES reports it via the OBD2 information. Having problems attaching photos at the moment -- so, if they dodn't appear, just to say that I've been monitoring the advance on my Punto all day -- and it tends to hover around the -10/20° mark: but sometimes dips into single figures; and went as high/low(?!) as -40° at one point. :chin:





PS: Have you actually physically checked the timing...?

'The timing is actually really easy to check..
Even without the 'locking tool's..

But.. I very much doubt it is a 'timing 'issue..
Unless ...its dropped out..and that 'might be 'unlucky...let's hope not..

Today I finally had a bit of time again...

I found no obvious bad connections. I haven't checked the timing, will do it this weekend.

My ELM327 cable has arrived in the meantime, turns out I have an P1002 error (Immobilizer Aerial). The "code" symbol in the dash does not light up when trying to start, but could the immobilizer be cutting power to the ignition system? I've checked with Multiecuscan, that the "code" symbol is working.

Are you sure it's P1002?

I can't find that, even on the Italian lists.

Check for spark -- remove one plug and lay it, connected to the HT lead, on top of the rocker cover, check the timing, check the crank sensor, check the compression.

Sorry, should never post on an empty stomach...

It was B1002 - corresponding text is transponder aerial.

There's no spark. Plugs OK, new plug wires, ignition module resistance OK, all fuses OK.

I've no wiring diagram of the Mk2, but the aeriaql is worth checking out.

It runs from the round, circular, enclosure of the ignition switch housing to the code box (on Seicentos of the same era that resides in the passenger side footwell, but I'm unsure of where it is on a LHD Punto).

Earlier cars use a braided pair cable, rather like those you used to see on 1940s electrical devices).

It's quite possible that the cable has been pulled out from one end or the other. (If no obvious break, test with an ohmeter for continuity.)

The aerial is a "dumb" device: it just reads the chip in the key and carries the code to the codebox, so replacement should be plug and play.