Hi Folks
Long time since I posted anything. About to add a 3rd Panda to the stable.

We're looking for a 1.2 ECO or a 1.3 Multijet.
Just seen a 2009 1.2 ECO.
It drove OK, but I was concerned about the exhaust, rear suspension, a minor leak under the bonnet, no cam-belt change.

Is this just normal for the age of car?
How long has the exhaust got left in it?
Looks like the springs & cups need a good wire brushing and waxoil.
I spotted a coolant hose(?) with some cracks.

I hope that the attached pictures are clear enough:

• Engine bay is generally nice and clean - but some signs of some sort of fluid leak behind the dipstick.
• One of the rubber tubes (near the top O/S engine mount) shows signs of cracks.
• Rusty rear springs and cups. Though I suspect this is normal for a 2009 car.
• Sump is rustier than I expected - but I suspect will last a good few years.
• I can see the oil filter has been changed - oil on the end of the dipstick was clean.
• I can't tell if the timing belt looks like the original. There is no mention of a timing belt change in the service notes.
• Exhaust back box - is de-laminating.
• The link pipe seems to be a solid tube of rust.

What do you reckon?

Cheers C.T.
P.S. Got the VIN number but can't get the VIN recognised in the on-line eper that I found referenced by the forum

CaptainTuba said:

Hi Folks
Long time since I posted anything. About to add a 3rd Panda to the stable.

We're looking for a 1.2 ECO or a 1.3 Multijet.
Just seen a 2009 1.2 ECO.
It drove OK, but I was concerned about the exhaust, rear suspension, a minor leak under the bonnet, no cam-belt change.

Is this just normal for the age of car?
How long has the exhaust got left in it?
Looks like the springs & cups need a good wire brushing and waxoil.
I spotted a coolant hose(?) with some cracks.

I hope that the attached pictures are clear enough:

• Engine bay is generally nice and clean - but some signs of some sort of fluid leak behind the dipstick.
• One of the rubber tubes (near the top O/S engine mount) shows signs of cracks.
• Rusty rear springs and cups. Though I suspect this is normal for a 2009 car.
• Sump is rustier than I expected - but I suspect will last a good few years.
• I can see the oil filter has been changed - oil on the end of the dipstick was clean.
• I can't tell if the timing belt looks like the original. There is no mention of a timing belt change in the service notes.
• Exhaust back box - is de-laminating.
• The link pipe seems to be a solid tube of rust.

What do you reckon?

Cheers C.T.
P.S. Got the VIN number but can't get the VIN recognised in the on-line eper that I found referenced by the forum

Click to expand...

Hi, all appears pretty normal,
I've an '04 1.1 that been that good I've now got a '57 plate also,

had to change the rubber hose on the '57 - Trowbridge car..!!

Stupid money for 8" of rubber tube = @£30

the '04 link pipe has looked like that for the last 7 years.., still sound

not had issues with rusty cups.. cars are mud-free
However - front suspension is a common FAIL - BUT cheap and easy..

cam-belt and waterpump are simple enough to do..,
use as a bargaining tool

Charlie - Didcot

Thanks Charlie

Got a part number for that hose?
I had a look using eper for the part but couldn't find it.

Is this a DIY replacement?
It looks like the hose clamp locations are tricky and use special tools to clamp.

Was your Trowbridge car from a dealer?
If so, how was the deal?

C.T.

Those pics look fairly normal, though I would expect this on a slightly older car than an '09.
(has it been parked on the beach at Western Super Mare?)

I had to deal with my sisters 54 plate that had rotten springs, shocks and crusty rear axle along with a leaky back box.
(the rest of the car was perfect)

The exhaust it pretty normal, originals are made up with a couple of skins and tend to rot from the inside out quite badly before they leak.
I believe later 2012- cars had a drain hole in the box (though I've never looked)

It's all do able and quite simple if your diy skills are good, but it would need to be very cheap for me to consider.
I spent around £500 sorting out my sisters.
There are plenty of cars about that shouldn't need as much fettling.

Diesels do have their own separate issues and if you're not up on turbo common rails, a doer upper on a budget might not be a wise choice.

If it's that pipe with the smaller pipe to the throttle body that's leaking, tape it up
It only carried engine oil vapour back around to the intake to get burnt.

Goudrons

OK - its a breather pipe - so no need to worry too much.
I found them available on ebay from 10UKP by searching for:
FIAT PUNTO PANDA SEICENTO 1.2 8 VALVE OIL BREATHER PIPE

Seems like a small diameter.
Do they get bunged up with crud?

Cheers
C.T.

Not generally, petrols don't really dump soot in the oil like a diesel engine does, so it breaths a very small amount of engine oil vapour through it.

If you remove the airbox and look down the throttle body, you'll see a bit of oil in the bottom, it's nothing to worry about, it's just how they vent the crankcase gases "responsibly".

One end of the three ended pipe is on the engine casing, another end is pushed on the underside of the airbox and the smaller spur goes to the throttle body.

They get pulled, twisted and flexed when the airbox is removed, that's why they start to crack.

Just tape it up, it'll be fine.

Seen a few more Pandas and like the look of the sliding rear seat option, it is a good option for bigger loads.
The drivers seat height adjust is useful too, as I'm tall 6'4" and the Mrs is short.

I like the idea of diesel - it is the economy that appeals and the extra power for when you're fully loaded. However, I don't understand yet if the DPF version is to be avoided or not.
I can't find a definitive cut-over point from the non-DPF 51 kW (69 PS; 68 hp) version to the DPF 55 kW (75 PS; 74 hp). It seems to be sometime in 2007/2008. Is there an easy way to tell if a diesel Panda has a DPF?

Please can some kind person post some pictures of where the DPF is so that I can know what to look for.

Cheers C.T.

I've no idea about the DPF's.
Not even 100% sure they ever got fitted on this model in the UK.

I wouldn't be too quick to write off the 1.2 petrol for the diesel.
Two of our 1.2 petrols are averaging over 50 mpg over the last 6000 or so miles and generally they are less fussy mechancially.

They sold more petrols, so choice and prices are better.

Diesels do have their own issues and modern common rails are not really diy friendly, particularly the fuel system.

They tend to suffer common turbo diesel issues of seized turbo wastegates and failed EGR's.

They tend to be heavier up front so wishbone mounting bushes suffer sooner and recently we've seen one on here with a oil cooler issue, again another common diesel problem.

There is a problem with water draining off the scuttle and getting into the airbox, there is a simple fix (on here somewhere) but it's worth checking the air filter is dry on any purchase.

And finally, no one seems to know how diesel owners are going to be treated in the near future, particularly after this VW thing.
Contrary to what you're lead to believe regarding all these new emission control devices, there's just to many diesels pumping out this stuff.

They'll be some attempt to get/force owners out of them, I'm sure on that, and I don't reckon they'll make the same mistake that happened with the scrapage scheme.
So it's highly likely they'll try hitting owners pockets to get them out of them.

It's already started in some London boroughs, £96 extra for any diesel owner for a parking permit in Islington just because of their emissions (whether it's got all these devices or not) and Islington isn't the only one.

Lot of truth in what Goudrons says. Diesels could be hammered over the next few years. At the moment I pay just £30 annual tax.

I'm a diehard diesel fan though. I like their sheer drivability compared to the equivalent petrols. I also store my own diesel fuel in quantity, which you can't do with petrol. Useful out here in the sticks.

My 09 Panda Multijet does not have a dpf, and I have also chipped it, blanked the EGR valve and removed the rust-prone rear box. It goes like the proverbial, especially from low revs, which is perfect for give-and-take traffic.

It is not the most economical diesel Panda out there though. I have Punto wheels and larger tyres, a roof rack for my kayak which stays on all the time (the rack, not the kayak), and usually a wheelchair in the back for my passenger, so I drive it loaded and average just under 60mpg. Some on here get 10mpg more than that. Not grumbling at what I get - it's a good blend of punch and economy.

Can't say I've noticed excessive front tyre wear. I keep my tracking spot-on, and change from summer to winter wheels each year, so intervals between buying tyres are long.

I laughed at Goudron's comment about the rust, I have a ten year old Multijet and live in Weston-Super-Mare and it has only a quarter of the rust of that car in the pics.

I'm not anti diesel either, I've had some crackers, but they've generally been pump timed, indirect injected old lumps that I've ran on my endless supply of waste veg oil.

I gave up on modern diesels when the second pump broke up on my old twin turbo Jag and wiped out six injectors for the second time.
It also liked to eat two EGR's at a time!

Later common rails are becoming victims of their own success.
The more fuel efficent they get them to run, the more NOx comes out of them and the more controls they introduce to reduce emissions, the more expensive and unreliable they become.

I guess the old adage is true, you get nowt for nowt!

For me, the choice is pretty simple as Fiat's FIRE is such a great engine.

I have one of the original 2005 Multijets. It returns around 65 mpg mainly driven in city. I had a few issues with the timing chain a couple of years ago but that was down to poor workmanship more than anything else from a 'specialist'. Dez got through that and now has just over 105K miles on the clock.

I don't think that my car is that hard on tyres, but I swap between summer and winter wheels and when I do I change them front to rear at the same time so they wear evenly. I've been using Michelins for both winter and summer tyres (Alpins & Energy). Both seem to wear well and give good enough grip.

As far as dpfs go, I don't believe that this style of Panda ever got one. They pulled the diesel engine as an option a year or two before the end of production.

As for egr, again I've had no problems. I think that is probably down to my Panda always getting up to temperature on almost any run I do.

I too am unsure about what the consequences will be from the VW saga. I'm not sure if we'll enjoy our £30 tax much longer. I'm hoping that if they decide to try to price us out of our diesels that there'll be some compensation to do so. I'll just wait and see. I've got no reason currently to think about changing. I've owned my car from new and it's not worth a lot now that it's over 10. My plan is to keep on running with it.

Wee Smurf said:

I too am unsure about what the consequences will be from the VW saga.

Click to expand...

The bottom line is that they will likely adjust the system in such a way as to ensure that the cost of running a diesel car is significantly greater than the cost of running the equivalent petrol model. How, when, and by how much, is anyone's guess.

There are many different ways they could do this and, personally speaking, I wouldn't bank on owners getting any compensation.

IMO now is not the time to even consider buying any diesel passenger car, new or used. The reasons are more to do with political and fiscal considerations than technical merit. Logic and rational behaviour are unlikely to feature in government policy on this issue.

jrkitching said:

The bottom line is that they will likely adjust the system in such a way as to ensure that the cost of running a diesel car is significantly greater than the cost of running the equivalent petrol model. How, when, and by how much, is anyone's guess.

Click to expand...

When you throw a stone into a pond, the ripples spread.

Already, various authorities are beginning to examine other manufacturers as well as VW. Now it seems that petrol vehicles also are becoming involved. If they turn out to be as pure as snow, then legislation may be enacted to discourage private diesel use. It remains to be seen how far the ripples reach, so legislation - or pricing - on fuels may yet surprise us.

Of course, most of our goods, by sea or land, are transported by diesel-power. Huge long-term investment by many powerful industries, apart from car makers who will obviously now push for cleaner diesels, is based on the future of diesel fuel. You cannot get petrol from a refining process without also producing diesel. These vested interests will not be silent if they see things working against them.

Watch this space!

Sweetsixteen said:

Now it seems that petrol vehicles also are becoming involved. If they turn out to be as pure as snow, then legislation may be enacted to discourage private diesel use.

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The most recent research I've seen found that, as far as NOx is concerned, most modern petrol engines met or were very close to the static test emissions limits in real world driving. Larger diesel engines using SCR technology (adblue) also performed well in real world tests - it's specifically diesel cars and light vans that are the problem.

CO2 and particulates are a different matter entirely and petrol engines are just as likely to perform significantly worse in the real world than official tests suggest. That's not new news - we've all seen the gap widening between claimed mpg figures and real world economy (CO2 & mpg are closely linked).

The latest direct injection petrol engines likely produce more particulates than diesels.

As you say, throw a stone and you get ripples. Where all this will end up is anyone's guess.

I remember reading somewhere recently that Mercedes are saying if current plans for real world emissions testing come to fruition, they will cease production of diesel powered cars & light vans, though that may just be sensationalist reporting (and we've seen plenty of that).

I heard it was just Mercedes light vans.

Their reasoning is (if you shovel their sh*t out of the way) that private car owners will swallow the costs of additional emissions controls of their "premium" products, where the fleet van industry don't won't or can't meet the added expenses.

It's is/was hard to argue with that.
Up until last week, VW produced vans that didn't need all the expensive additional emissions control devices, so how could Merc compete?

It's a difficult situation to call in regards to the future of diesel powered vehicles.

Still on the van/haulage thing leads to VAT to consider.
Nearly all our goods travel the country via road with the use of diesel.
Some of tax collected on this diesel offsets VAT that's not applied on certain goods, particularly the food in our shops and the feed to produce it.

Everyone involved will be very keen to keep this arrangement, expensive food that's expensive to produce (either by using petrol or adding VAT) isn't going to make anyone happy and no government is going to be too eager to change it, as unlike the French, we've buggered up the alternative long ago (railway goods yards outside local towns).

So the issue here in the UK isn't likely to be the car owner/user, they've been bent over and rogered so often it's expected these days and I'm certain private owners will be discouraged as it's already happening, but what's going to happen to all the road haulage?

Diesel make us die, but we still want cheap burgers!

Goudrons said:

Still on the van/haulage thing leads to VAT to consider.
Nearly all our goods travel the country via road with the use of diesel.
Some of tax collected on this diesel offsets VAT that's not applied on certain goods, particularly the food in our shops and the feed to produce it.

Click to expand...

Surely most commercial operators will just reclaim back any VAT they pay on fuel for vehicles used solely for business purposes.

This actually gives the government an opportunity for targeting privately owned diesels; double the rate of VAT on diesel fuel to 40% and the cost benefits of most diesel cars will disappear overnight. Commercial transport companies will just reclaim the VAT and so will be unaffected.

Back on topic..........


I think that if he's in the market for either Panda then unless his mileage is significantly higher, the 1.2 makes more sense unless he finds a nice low miles diesel very cheap.


For me - I'd go with the later Dynamic model for the £30 tax and the remote CL (plus tacho, trip computer etc).


Each to their own though.

AB100 said:

For me - I'd go with the later Dynamic model for the £30 tax and the remote CL (plus tacho, trip computer etc).

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Me also. IMO the last of the Euro4 60HP 1.2's were the best value Panda ever. I paid about £6600 for mine, new in 2010.

You get A/C as standard, too.

I never mentioned VAT on fuel.

It's the excise duty on fuel that helps the offset, it's one of the reasons we don't pay VAT on Food.

It was estimated in 2014, a £16.5 million cost of the 0% rate VAT on food alone.

Fuel Duty raised nearly £29 billion and it was estimated road haulage contributed over £120 million of that.

By doing it this way successive governments have put the onus on retailers to soak up costs and pressures of the effects of this 0% rate just because they need to move it around the country.