Hi, found this forum when looking for info on the thread title fault.

I see from the stickies the fault of excessive front tyre inner edge wear is a possible known fault with tracking.
I noticed my wife's car which has now done 22000 miles, was pulling to left during winter and since it was only just 1 year old at the time, advised her to get the garage to check it out under warranty at that time. Unfortunately she did not do this and a week or so ago I noticed the tread on the left rear tyre was worn down on the outside edge. It is almost bald on outside edge. I then checked the other tyres and found excessive wear to inside edges of both front tyres bad enough that they require replacement, as does left rear.
Today it was checked at the Fiat dealership and she was told that wear on front tyres was "normal front wheel drive tyre wear". When she asked them to check the tracking they refused to do it unless she paid. The checking for a fault with steering/suspension consisted of up on ramp and a visual inspection for damage followed by test drive. We can't see anything wrong is their response, no thought given to the fact that one rear tyre is badly worn on outside edge and other is OK.

When she got home I was so angry that I phoned them to ask what was going on. The extent of the lies that I was given by the service guy was worrying, "all FWD cars wear their tyres on inside edge, it's normal", "cars always pull to left due to camber of road", "we checked car and couldn't find anything wrong so it must be OK".
When I asked him about why one of the rear tyres had wear on outside edge and the other didn't, he did describe the wear as "abnormal", when challenged on this he quickly backtracked saying "it could be due to carcase of tyre". I asked why they were willing to allow my wife to drive away with a car that has an obvious fault that they were unwilling to check with nothing more than a visual check, no tracking check unless my wife paid on a car still under warranty.
The statement that FWD cars all wear their tyres on inside edge was what most annoyed me because I've owned and worked on many FWD cars, over nearly 40 years, Minis, Metros, Sciroccos(MK1+2), Golf GTIs (and few others I won't admit to owning) and none of them wore the inside edge of their front tyres unless there was a fault with tracking and/or excessive front camber. His response when I informed him that he was talking rubbish was to continually repeat "FWD cars all wear the inside edge of front tyres".
The assertion that "all cars pull to left due to camber of road" I disproved by driving up the slip road of the motorway where the road falls from left to right, if what he said were true, it should have pulled to right "due to the camber", surprise, surprise it still pulled to left.
The only concession I got from him was that my wife could get the tracking checked for free but if it was out she'd have to pay to adjust as it's not part of warranty. Think I'll go with her and ask him to show me all the year+ old cars in their stock that have "normal FWD wear on inside edges of tyres".

Sorry for this rant to be my 2nd post on here but I'm not happy that we're being lied to by a major Fiat dealer who is trying to absolve themselves of the responsibility of finding and dealing with an obvious fault on a 16 month old car still under warranty.

Wow that's a long post, mind you I don't blame you for releasing some steam here. That is truly shocking what crap you were told by the garage. Personally I would be making enquiries at a higher level & kicking some ass.

In the mean time I would imagine you have taken alternative steps to remedy this situation about the cars tracking & tyres problem.

Best of luck.

I have put up several posts about tyre wear and camber issues in the last few months (you can find these if you search Panda threads for tyre wear and look for any by David Bliss).

I was treated in exactly the same way by my main dealer. They had even noted down figures for tyre wear at the first service, but did not flag it up as unusual. I think this is disgusting as it has probably nearly halved the life of the tyres. I have cured my problem by increasing the tyre pressures to about 4 lbs per square inch above manufacturers recommended levels.

The more I looked at the system the less I liked it. For instance I do not like the design of the front wishbones, they seem to me to be designed to fail and cost the customer a considerable amount in repair bills (although they would not cause the unusual tyre wear).

I queried the camber and steering geometry issues that I found, and got no where. It wasn't until I discussed the problems with a friend who used to be involved in the design of Lotus cars that I began to understand why the problem has arisen. The front suspension has little travel, the negative camber and positive castor are set up to make the car handle safely at higher speeds. In this regard they have succeeded, the car is stable at higher speeds, but this stability has come at a cost.

Your handling problems are probably caused by the tyre wear itself, which changes the camber angle on one side causing the car to pull that way.

This year, although the car is still under warranty, I am doing the servicing myself (which will be to a higher standard than that done by a garage) and only letting them do a 'health check' on the vehicle. They're not getting a penny more from me than is absolutely necessary!

David Bliss said:

I have put up several posts about tyre wear and camber issues in the last few months (you can find these if you search Panda threads for tyre wear and look for any by David Bliss).

I was treated in exactly the same way by my main dealer. They had even noted down figures for tyre wear at the first service, but did not flag it up as unusual. I think this is disgusting as it has probably nearly halved the life of the tyres. I have cured my problem by increasing the tyre pressures to about 4 lbs per square inch above manufacturers recommended levels.

The more I looked at the system the less I liked it. For instance I do not like the design of the front wishbones, they seem to me to be designed to fail and cost the customer a considerable amount in repair bills (although they would not cause the unusual tyre wear).

I queried the camber and steering geometry issues that I found, and got no where. It wasn't until I discussed the problems with a friend who used to be involved in the design of Lotus cars that I began to understand why the problem has arisen. The front suspension has little travel, the negative camber and positive castor are set up to make the car handle safely at higher speeds. In this regard they have succeeded, the car is stable at higher speeds, but this stability has come at a cost.

Your handling problems are probably caused by the tyre wear itself, which changes the camber angle on one side causing the car to pull that way.

This year, although the car is still under warranty, I am doing the servicing myself (which will be to a higher standard than that done by a garage) and only letting them do a 'health check' on the vehicle. They're not getting a penny more from me than is absolutely necessary!

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Personally I don't feel there's an issue with the design of the wishbones. The bushes can be bought seperately so if the bushes do go, then you don't need to replace the whole wishbone -> http://seekpart24.com/fiat/panda-169-03/1-2-2/mounting-fastening-100572 and better quality wishbones can be bought -> http://seekpart24.com/fiat/panda-16...ks-wishbone-trailing-link-diagonal-arm-100571 so you hopefully shouldn't be replacing the arms every 3 or 4 years. I think you overstate the issue with the front wishbones, I don't recall anyone having to replace their front arms based on the wear of the bushes. All have had to be replaced because of wear on the balljoints.

As for sorting the uneven wear, I think what really needs to be done is to go to somewhere which specialises in suspension setup (http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/ springs to mind) and sit down and have a discussion with someone about the problems. With all due respect to a Fiat garage, you will have some good and some bad ones and some people who are more used to fixing electrical or engine problems rather than suspension issues and all they will do is refer to the manufacturers specs anyway. A tyre place will more likely than not, merely refer to manufacturers specs also. A suspension specialist will be far better prepared to deal with a problem like this.

The nature of these sort of issues is such that it's nigh on impossible to give someone exact advice for rectifying such problems for the following reasons.

Cornering hard will tend to wear the outside edge of the tyre.
Braking hard will wear the inside edge of the tyre.
Accelerating hard will wear the inside of the tyre.
Driving hard around roundabouts will absolutely murder the left hand tyre.
Turning hard whilst braking or accelerating hard is going to murder the front tyre on the outside of the corner.

I'm always mindful of this and if possible try to only put one sort of load through the tyres at a time so I will generally only corner, brake or accelerate at any one time and the tyres on my 500 are wearing evenly across the tread. The front left tyre wears the most but that's to be expected, the fronts wear more than the rears (again, to be expected) and the left rear is wearing slightly more the the right rear which again you would expect. I've rotated the tyres twice now and that's meant that none of the tyres is anymore particularly worn than the others.

A rambling post, but I hope it's helped. If anyone feels that there's an issue they should contact a suspension specialist.

Thanks for the replies guys, and yes I was a bit angry about the complete lies that were fed to me and my wife. What really got me is that even though the guy I was talking to knew that I knew what I was talking about regarding car suspension/steering, he continued lying regardless. Also the complete denial that a problem exists when the evidence of abnormal tyre wear is plain to see.

I will have a look for the other threads about this tyre wear problem.

My wife drives in a manner that I would describe as sedate, no high speeds, hard braking or sharp cornering, all conducive to extending tyre life and maximising fuel economy.

Well, I've had a read through the threads suggested to me by David Bliss, thanks, and there does seem to be a problem with some Pandas and other similar models.
Fiat are obviously aware of it but are fobbing owners off with the same excuses, one of the posters was given the same pathetic excuse for his cat pulling to left as us, "it's the camber of the road", AYE RIGHT..

Think we'll be contacting our local trading standards office for info on where we stand if the dealer continues with their complete lies.

XPander said:

Well, I've had a read through the threads suggested to me by David Bliss, thanks, and there does seem to be a problem with some Pandas and other similar models.
Fiat are obviously aware of it but are fobbing owners off with the same excuses, one of the posters was given the same pathetic excuse for his cat pulling to left as us, "it's the camber of the road", AYE RIGHT..

Think we'll be contacting our local trading standards office for info on where we stand if the dealer continues with their complete lies.

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Before you go to Trading standards, go to a suspension specialist and get the car looked over.

If you went to trading standards with no proof of what is wrong then there's little point I would have thought.

Yes, that's what I intend doing, my wife has already spoken to a local garage to have the settings independently checked. Visiting trading standards would be , initially anyway, to see where my wife stands with her legal rights to make sure we can tackle the dealer knowing we are correct about our rights.

XPander said:

Yes, that's what I intend doing, my wife has already spoken to a local garage to have the settings independently checked. Visiting trading standards would be , initially anyway, to see where my wife stands with her legal rights to make sure we can tackle the dealer knowing we are correct about our rights.

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Like I said, take it to a suspension specialist rather than just a normal garage. Most of the people who have had tyre wear issues have taken their cars to dealers and independents only to be told (and have printouts to prove that) the suspension is within the parameters that Fiat stipulate. What you want is for someone to say, "Yes, it's within the parameters that Fiat set, but these parameters are the reason for the premature wear" or something else similar, then you stand a chance of getting something out of Fiat

Wheel alignment will never be covered under warranty, as the owner could knock it out at any time, like clubbing the kerb as they leave the Dealership. Obviously if misalignment was caused by a defective component, it would be checked and adjusted for free when the part is replaced.

hello - just thought I would add the history of my Panda's front suspension and trust it may be of help. I have a 53 2004 Dynamic with 26k. Overall I'm happy with the car but I feel the suspension system has let me down and at cost. I'll be looking at the new Panda though next year -

12263 2 new front tyres fitted due to wear on inner edges (MOT fail)
14839 both front strut top bearings replaced due to excessive play (MOT fail)
17512 front brakes just met the front brake imbalance requirements (MOT advisory) - front pads and discs and brake fluid replaced
20777 o/s front upper shock absorber has slightly worn rubber bush with o/s front tyre wearing (MOT advisory); 2 new front tyres fitted
21225 ABS recall work undertaken foc
25223 n/s & o/s front lower suspension arm rubber bushes deteriorated resulting in excessive movement & o/s front strut has excessive movement at the upper attachment (all replaced under MOT)

At 20777 those new budget tyres certainly improved ride, grip and noise over the original Continental's.

At current 26k there is still a 'clunk' from the o/s front suspension. A clunk from the rear suspension from new disappeared around 20k!

Mike

macmuckle said:

Overall I'm happy with the car but I feel the suspension system has let me down and at cost. I'll be looking at the new Panda though next year

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Good call. The Panda is just about the cheapest new car you can buy in the UK today. It stands to reason that the parts used to build it are not going to be the best money can buy and a few of them will wear out quicker than they might on more expensive cars. Fortunately aftermarket replacements for the more common items to fail are available, reasonably cheap, possibly of better quality than the originals and easily fitted by the mechanically competent. It's a great value car if you can do the basics yourself, and a good value car if you take it to a trustworthy independent.

But I think some 500 owners are going to be in for a shock when they find they've paid a premium price for a car made from the same cheap parts.

jrkitching said:

But I think some 500 owners are going to be in for a shock when they find they've paid a premium price for a car made from the same cheap parts.

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It's going to be quite chuckleworthy seeing the hissy fits thrown by all the people with princess complexes

"I feel like dying! I've just been told that Enzobluebellinamarioluigispaghettibologneselasagna needs some work doing and it's going to cost me £500. I just don't know what to do!!!! Help me! I'm sobbing myself to sleep in the foetal position every night "

macmuckle said:

... At 20777 those new budget tyres certainly improved ride, grip and noise over the original Continental's ...

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Conti tyres are usually in-the-medals – if not Gold, then Silver or Bronze. Presumably yours were totally `lacquered’ for a budget to be described as giving “improved” performance.

Given your bold statement – can you provide any supporting evidence?

Why not reveal the secret of these anonymous tyres with readers – so that they may share in the benefits … or the joke?
.

306maxi said:

It's going to be quite chuckleworthy seeing the hissy fits thrown by all the people with princess complexes

"I feel like dying! I've just been told that Enzobluebellinamarioluigispaghettibologneselasagna needs some work doing and it's going to cost me £500. I just don't know what to do!!!! Help me! I'm sobbing myself to sleep in the foetal position every night "

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Folks who've paid list for a TwinAir with £2k of options can likely afford it, and will probably have traded it in by then anyway. The people I really worry for are those who've scrimped & stretched to buy a used 500 - this could be an expensive car to own in years 3-6, especially for those who choose to use their main dealer for servicing and repairs. At current forecourt prices, I think a secondhand 500 is actually one of the worst buys out there as even the cheapest 3yr old car will cost you £££ more than a new Panda.

Caravadossi said:

Conti tyres are usually in-the-medals – if not Gold, then Silver or Bronze. Presumably yours were totally `lacquered’ for a budget to be described as giving “improved” performance.

Given your bold statement – can you provide any supporting evidence?

Why not reveal the secret of these anonymous tyres with readers – so that they may share in the benefits … or the joke?
.

Click to expand...

How could I possibly supply any suporting evidence? The car just feels better and why would I say so if it didn't. These economy tyres are wearing much better as well. Please keep you comments in the positive rather than trying to score a point or two for some reason - it puts contributors off making postings as well.

macmuckle said:

hello - just thought I would add the history of my Panda's front suspension and trust it may be of help. I have a 53 2004 Dynamic with 26k. Overall I'm happy with the car but I feel the suspension system has let me down and at cost. I'll be looking at the new Panda though next year -

12263 2 new front tyres fitted due to wear on inner edges (MOT fail)
14839 both front strut top bearings replaced due to excessive play (MOT fail)
17512 front brakes just met the front brake imbalance requirements (MOT advisory) - front pads and discs and brake fluid replaced
20777 o/s front upper shock absorber has slightly worn rubber bush with o/s front tyre wearing (MOT advisory); 2 new front tyres fitted
21225 ABS recall work undertaken foc
25223 n/s & o/s front lower suspension arm rubber bushes deteriorated resulting in excessive movement & o/s front strut has excessive movement at the upper attachment (all replaced under MOT)

At 20777 those new budget tyres certainly improved ride, grip and noise over the original Continental's.

At current 26k there is still a 'clunk' from the o/s front suspension. A clunk from the rear suspension from new disappeared around 20k!

Mike

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I've got to say that is just appalling for a car with so low mileage. I had a top mount changed within a year of owning the car, shocking really. I'm beginning to wonder if the suspension is made out of cheese or the parts are just appalling in respect of quality. A car with that kind of mileage should not have needed anything replacing.

trackdayqueen said:

I've got to say that is just appalling for a car with so low mileage. I had a top mount changed within a year of owning the car, shocking really. I'm beginning to wonder if the suspension is made out of cheese or the parts are just appalling in respect of quality. A car with that kind of mileage should not have needed anything replacing.

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I agree

Something else that is worth remembering is that the OEM geo settings are over quite a wide range. I'd want everything bang in the middle, it isn't that hard to do, I used to do geo setups (though on Elises/Exiges for track and race etc) and it really isn't that hard to get it exactly right, all you have to do is take your time and take a bit of care. I doubt though that even most supposed specialists in alignment take the kind of care required to get it setup right though.

What you really want is an old school expert who sets up cars for race and rallying to do it as you'll likely get a better job and it does make quite a difference.

trackdayqueen said:

Something else that is worth remembering is that the OEM geo settings are over quite a wide range. I'd want everything bang in the middle, it isn't that hard to do, I used to do geo setups (though on Elises/Exiges for track and race etc) and it really isn't that hard to get it exactly right, all you have to do is take your time and take a bit of care. I doubt though that even most supposed specialists in alignment take the kind of care required to get it setup right though.

What you really want is an old school expert who sets up cars for race and rallying to do it as you'll likely get a better job and it does make quite a difference.

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Exactly. As I've said before, I'm planning to put some Bilstein coilovers on the 500 when the standard dampers go and I'll be taking it to Demon Tweeks who of course specialise in setting up race/rally cars to get them put on or at the very least to get an full geometry done. I wonder if camber/toe shims will work fine on the 500/panda? Would be a shame to spend £600 or so on a good set of coilovers and be limited to just playing with the front geometry.