John87 said:

My advice to anyone with a diesels would be to get the dpf deleted as soon as possible.

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Deleting a dpf is an environmental crime.

IMO anyone removing a dpf for commercial gain should face mandatory imprisonment.

I'd agree dpf's have put the economic case for diesel passenger cars into question, but there are overwhelmingly compelling environmental reasons why they are needed and removing them isn't the answer.

jrkitching said:

Deleting a dpf is an environmental crime.

IMO anyone removing a dpf for commercial gain should face mandatory imprisonment.

I'd agree dpf's have put the economic case for diesel passenger cars into question, but there are overwhelmingly compelling environmental reasons why they are needed and removing them isn't the answer.

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But my car ran clean without it? And any other mazda6 diesel that still had its mot wasn't as good emission wise, surely what I did would be classed as environmentally friendly?

John87 said:

But my car ran clean without it?

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No, it didn't.

Diesel exhaust is a grade 1 carcinogen. It's the microscopic pariculates which pose the greatest health risk - and these aren't detected by current MOT methods. DPF's remove the majority of these particulates.

IMO exposing innocent folks to the risk of a slow and painful death in order to save a few pennies is unacceptable in a civilised society.

jrkitching said:

No, it didn't.

Diesel exhaust is a grade 1 carcinogen. It's the microscopic pariculates which pose the greatest health risk - and these aren't detected by current MOT methods. DPF's remove the majority of these particulates.

IMO exposing innocent folks to the risk of a slow and painful death in order to save a few pennies is unacceptable in a civilised society.

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The dpf system is flawed on basic principle of how it works anyway.. Save the planet for 200 miles then kill it for 20.. Regeneration is the car clearing out the filter, and guess where the partials go..they don't just disappear. The filters do get clogged up because of larger particles but this takes a while. Until then the particles are still escaping. If they get rid of regeneration, make the filter easy to remove and replace (and at an affordable price for your average people on a normal wage say £10 a filter instead of £750-1500 (last time I was quoted for replacing a dpf I was told by mazda it would be £900, and this is before I knew it had been removed by a previous owner)-not average wage because it's higher than most people earn) then the dpf would be left in place by almost everyone. It's the rip off costs associated with the dpf when it goes wrong that is people's incentive to get rid of them. Reduce the cost and stop ripping off people and this issue goes away. Yes that's reducing financial loss, but that's why people buy a diesel. To cut financial costs. Otherwise what's the point?

Give it ten years, and the bottom will drop out of the diesel car market.

If I ruled the world, no-one would be able to buy a diesel car.
I'd bring in a scrappage scheme and owners could scrap them and be given a nice discount on a clean modern petrol car.

I'd treble the cost of derv, and any company using it for lorries, busses and large delivery vans could claim back the extra cost like they claim the VAT back now.

Regards,
Mick.

John87 said:

The dpf system is flawed on basic principle of how it works anyway.. Save the planet for 200 miles then kill it for 20.. Regeneration is the car clearing out the filter, and guess where the partials go..they don't just disappear. The filters do get clogged up because of larger particles but this takes a while. Until then the particles are still escaping. If they get rid of regeneration, make the filter easy to remove and replace (and at an affordable price for your average people on a normal wage say £10 a filter instead of £750-1500 (last time I was quoted for replacing a dpf I was told by mazda it would be £900, and this is before I knew it had been removed by a previous owner)-not average wage because it's higher than most people earn) then the dpf would be left in place by almost everyone. It's the rip off costs associated with the dpf when it goes wrong that is people's incentive to get rid of them. Reduce the cost and stop ripping off people and this issue goes away. Yes that's reducing financial loss, but that's why people buy a diesel. To cut financial costs. Otherwise what's the point?

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You just don't have a clue, do you?

Last time I checked, a pattern DPF for the 500 was WELL under £200. As to the cost of the part being a rip-off, I'll leave that to the reader to work out why it'll never be ten quid for a highly engineered piece of ceramic.

DPF regen burns the collected particles of soot off the filter's surfaces (predominantly not out of the filter, hence why they eventually become clogged even with regens) to leave a very small amount of nearly-inert ash, which is not a (-s much of) a carcinogen.

Carcinogenicity of soot particles appears (as of current knowledge) to be strongly particle-size dependent, and DPFs are very good at capturing the particularly bad particles.

Mick F said:

Give it ten years, and the bottom will drop out of the diesel car market.

If I ruled the world, no-one would be able to buy a diesel car.
I'd bring in a scrappage scheme and owners could scrap them and be given a nice discount on a clean modern petrol car.

I'd treble the cost of derv, and any company using it for lorries, busses and large delivery vans could claim back the extra cost like they claim the VAT back now.

Regards,
Mick.

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Well, yes. But unless you're running a diesel car under specific circumstances (BIK tax avoidance, company provided, fixed term leasing or otherwise only within warranty, astronomical milages) you're already potentially looking at significant financial penalties over an equivalent petrol.

The Littlest Hobo said:

2012 fiat 500 pop. Bought for the purpose of what I believe the car is designed for. A good looking glorified shopping trolley. Main dealer serviced for 3 yrs has cost me £300 in total. Other than that it hasn't cost me a bean.

17,000mls and I plan to keep it forever. I only its people who expect these cars to be more than they are that become disappointed

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I think the point here is though, it isn't a cheap good looking glorified shopping trolley. Imvho, it's ridiculously overpriced for what it is, a very small car which sells predominently on it's very good looks. When people are paying the sort of money a brand new 500 costs in comparison to the competition, it should be built to a very high standard.

zanes said:

You just don't have a clue, do you?

Last time I checked, a pattern DPF for the 500 was WELL under £200. As to the cost of the part being a rip-off, I'll leave that to the reader to work out why it'll never be ten quid for a highly engineered piece of ceramic.

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As far as this goes. Will reply to the rest when I can really be bothered. The cost of £900 wasn't from fiat for a 500. It was for my mazda for the filter and fitting when I first got my mazda, and a quote from a main dealership. Not a recent thing. Secondly you didn't really understand what I wrote I mean 900 seems a rip off to me and definitely came across as being one at the time. Whether or not prices have been reduced by now is a different story.

But the other bit you completely blanked on. Maybe too clueless to realise what I had actually written.. Not that I care, is that they need to create a cheaper system, not make the existing one cheaper. Thought that would have been obvious
Create a different system with a cheaper but just as effective filter, and have a method to change the filter that can be done easily by someone on their driveway with tools. (isn't that hard a concept to envision is it? Or am I just too willing to see something that hasn't been created yet?)

John87 said:

As far as this goes. Will reply to the rest when I can really be bothered. The cost of £900 wasn't from fiat for a 500. It was for my mazda for the filter and fitting when I first got my mazda, and a quote from a main dealership. Not a recent thing. Secondly you didn't really understand what I wrote I mean 900 seems a rip off to me and definitely came across as being one at the time. Whether or not prices have been reduced by now is a different story.

But the other bit you completely blanked on. Maybe too clueless to realise what I had actually written.. Not that I care, is that they need to create a cheaper system, not make the existing one cheaper. Thought that would have been obvious
Create a different system with a cheaper but just as effective filter, and have a method to change the filter that can be done easily by someone on their driveway with tools. (isn't that hard a concept to envision is it? Or am I just too willing to see something that hasn't been created yet?)

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Yeah, the R&D engineers across all manufacturers deliberately engineered the system to be as expensive as possible to screw over the common man.

Well done you for cracking the secret.

zanes said:

Yeah, the R&D engineers across all manufacturers deliberately engineered the system to be as expensive as possible to screw over the common man.

Well done you for cracking the secret.

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Omg moronic reply..kind of expected that. The current dpf I'm sure has been revised since diesels started using dpf's. Allowing it to be cheaper, as with all technology new ways of doing it will exist just not developed or discovered yet, or possibly have and are in testing for all any of us know :/ sorry you can't see past today to that kind of idea...

Mick F said:

Give it ten years, and the bottom will drop out of the diesel car market.

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DPFs are only part of the story.

Remember, the ANNUAL pollution level limits were exceeded in the major cities in UK by early spring this year.

The death of the diesel car is nigh.

Regards,
Mick.

Mick F said:

DPFs are only part of the story.

Remember, the ANNUAL pollution level limits were exceeded in the major cities in UK by early spring this year.

The death of the diesel car is nigh.

Regards,
Mick.

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It will happen one day, it'll be a day when there are an extensive choice of electric cars I would imagine. Then again all road vehicles could be come electric in the future..electric or hydrogen powered. As oil won't unfortunately(fortunately depending how you see things) last forever.

To be honest, the vane of this thread is now becoming quite obnoxious. At the end of the day, we have someone advocating something which has been defined as illegal, it's a fact, whether anyone likes it or not, it is against the law to operate a vehicle on a public road that has had its DPF altered from its stock state, so that includes knocking the insides out of it, welding it up, or just plain downright removing it. What is ambiguous about that? What you do on private land is your own business, so if the car is just being driven around one's Country Estate, then crack on!

I actually feel sorry for the poor sods who buy a diesel that some idiot has deliberately removed the internal organs from a DPF who then sells it without telling said poor sod what they've done. Indeed, if I were a franchised/independent dealership taking any modern diesel car on a PX basis for possible sale on the forecourt, I would be insisting on the seller signing a legally binding declaration that the vehicle has a fully intact and working DPF if it was so fitted at the factory. I certainly wouldn't buy a diesel car of anyone in the private market these days.

I have a fully intact working DPF on my Saab 9-3, never had an issue with it. It regenerates correctly, the car does 50 odd to the gallon on a run, 43ish on general running about. I maintain the EGR and MAP sensor. There is no problem and I'm legal.

7 and a half years old now. the only thing that was replaced under warranty was the breather pipe from the top of the engine.

wear and tare items
two rear shocks
front strut tops
brakes- pads and disks
cam Belt and water pump (not because it needed one, just because the cam belt was being changed and it made sense for an extra £35).
new exhaust (now stainless)
tyres.

think I got a good one. oops that's gone and done it.

Mick F said:

DPFs are only part of the story.

Remember, the ANNUAL pollution level limits were exceeded in the major cities in UK by early spring this year.

The death of the diesel car is nigh.

Regards,
Mick.

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you cant just ban diesels when many people own one and save a lot of money by driving one. In continental Europe, diesel fuel is 30% cheaper than petrol in addition to being about 30% more fuel efficient. Next time I am buying a car, I definitely plan it to be diesel

so where is all the enviromental concern for the poor little kids working in other countries recycling all the cars, cats and dpf we chuck away?

If both petrol and diesel cars use the same oil and zinc in that oil makes dpf ash where does the zinc go in petrol cars?

ahmett said:

you cant just ban diesels when many people own one and save a lot of money by driving one.

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Some cities in Europe are already planning to do precisely that.

jrkitching said:

Some cities in Europe are already planning to do precisely that.

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I don't think they can get away with it and if they do it I assume it will apply for new cars. Too many people have diesel cars you can't just ban them

ahmett said:

I don't think they can get away with it and if they do it I assume it will apply for new cars. Too many people have diesel cars you can't just ban them

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It'll be phased in, and it'll be the older, more polluting vehicles which get banned first. Owners of vehicles <10yrs old are probably safe for now (though even they will likely be hit with penalising charges for parking and access).

On what I've been reading recently on this topic, I wouldn't be surprised if there are essentially no new diesel cars on sale in ten years time.

jrkitching said:

It'll be phased in, and it'll be the older, more polluting vehicles which get banned first. Owners of vehicles <10yrs old are probably safe for now (though even they will likely be hit with penalising charges for parking and access).

On what I've been reading recently on this topic, I wouldn't be surprised if there are essentially no new diesel cars on sale in ten years time.

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I guess I'll have to buy mine soon then