AndyRKett said:

DfT statics show a 25% decrease in accidents where cars are fitted with ESC how can you argue against that?

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From what I understand, ESP is of most use at speeds above the motorway limit, so I'm still not convinced.

I used to drive a Mercedes Sprinter fitted with traction control when I worked for Edmundson Electrical, and the traction control was a nightmare: it actually used to cause minor slides.

puntofan01 said:

That's why I'm dubious about driver aids as a whole.

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If I was being followed by someone texting I'd prefer them to have auto-brakes, however if they only felt comfortable doing so because they have auto-brakes..then that does rather defeat the point. ESP comes is useful in emergency situations, while I have driven cars with no driver aids daily no matter how good you are you could not brake each wheel individually to maintain stability.

If the system in the sprinter was "causing" slides I would suggest you need to remove the lead wellies, all TC does is cut the throttle when wheel spin is detected. If you were activating it then you would have had wheel spin without.

StevenRB45 said:

If the system in the sprinter was "causing" slides I would suggest you need to remove the lead wellies, all TC does is cut the throttle when wheel spin is detected. If you were activating it then you would have had wheel spin without.

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In the wet, you'd pull out of a junction, and have hardly any power, but the TC would disengage before you'd have chance to lift your foot off the throttle, causing the slides. The other Edmundson van was a Vito, and that was absolutely fine. Rain or shine, that never used to slide coming out of junctions.

puntofan01 said:

In the wet, you'd pull out of a junction, and have hardly any power, but the TC would disengage before you'd have chance to lift your foot off the throttle, causing the slides.

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That would still only cause a wheel spin, unless you panicked and hit the brakes, what ever the case still seems like driver error, all vans and cars drive slightly differently, especially as sprinters can be front or rear wheel drive, vito is usually fwd, all the ambulances round here are sprinters and having been out with them many times I can assure you they have no problems with skids or traction control and they know how to drive them properly.

StevenRB45 said:

If I was being followed by someone texting I'd prefer them to have auto-brakes, however if they only felt comfortable doing so because they have auto-brakes..then that does rather defeat the point.

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I feel at the moment a lot of these driver aides are really just on the forefront of the self driving car revolution, Volvos scan for pedestrians bikes and animals and can brake and predict if something is going to cross into the car's path. Most manufactures have self parking in some form, auto braking, auto lights, auto wipers, my new car has auto mainbeams. All round scanning for blind spots and such.
All the self driving technology is more or less out on the road it's just waiting for someone to bring it all together in a commercial car and cut through the red tape.

To be honest I'd rather computers be in charge of the cars than most of the muppets on the road

AndyRKett said:

That would still only cause a wheel spin, unless you panicked and hit the brakes, what ever the case still seems like driver error, all vans and cars drive slightly differently, especially as sprinters can be front or rear wheel drive, vito is usually fwd, all the ambulances round here are sprinters and having been out with them many times I can assure you they have no problems with skids or traction control and they know how to drive them properly.

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The wheelspin caused a slide because I was still in the process of straightening the steering. The main driver said that the Sprinter wasn't much good in the wet as well, and he drove large rwd vans for a living, so it wasn't down to driver error.

And FYI, Vitos are rwd, you're thinking of transits, which went over to fwd.

puntofan01 said:

.

And FYI, Vitos are rwd, you're thinking of transits, which went over to fwd.

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The original vito was rwd, the current new models come as either front or rear depending on engine, and most vans these days are (and have been for years) front wheel drive including everything that fiat makes.

I don't believe you specified which model..... Oh and then you mention the main driver of the sprinter, said it wasn't much good but not that he used to skid it every where, if the Tcs is active the wheels are spinning so it's your throttle control that's to blame ultimately.

As pointed out above traction control is not esp/esc so still renders your argument against esc as pointless

AndyRKett said:

The original vito was rwd, the current new models come as either front or rear depending on engine, and most vans these days are (and have been for years) front wheel drive including everything that fiat makes.

I don't believe you specified which model..... Oh and then you mention the main driver of the sprinter, said it wasn't much good but not that he used to skid it every where, if the Tcs is active the wheels are spinning so it's your throttle control that's to blame ultimately.

As pointed out above traction control is not esp/esc so still renders your argument against esc as pointless

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It was a 2008 Vito 109 CDI. I used to sit in my old mk2b for my lunch breaks, and if the Vito had been driven into its space rather than reversed in, I could see the diff and rear suspension.

With regards to throttle control, I used to apply gentle pressure on the throttle whilst lifting the clutch. How else are you meant to pull out of junctions?

And I already explained why I'm unconvinced about esp.

Anyway, back on topic.

I think cars have reached their peak, and will continue to be filled with ever increasing amounts of potentially distracting technology.

I can not stand modern cars. So many drivers aids Bono has threatened to do a charity single for them. Sure ABS and things to make the world a safer place are all well and good but twenty three different levels of traction control are for people who want to play Top Trumps instead of drive. Launch Control? If you need launch control on a road car you should not be allowed anywhere near a flipping road and have your balls cut off before you take a dump in the gene pool.

Styling or lack there of; they are all soulless homogeneous drones that look the same because they have been designed by computers, built by robots and signed off by committees. Park anything post 1998 in a busy carpark and loose it forever. The concept of individuality is a bygone myth because manufacturers are so busy copying each other none of them are prepared to be innovative.

Performance; they all go the same because manufacturers have their hands tied behind their backs by the EU, EPA and people who wear sandals all year round. The last time I did a group test it was completely pointless because I couldn't tell one car from another apart from the badge in the middle of the steering wheel.

So; are modern cars too good?

No, they're crap and when they go wrong you need a laptop instead of a tool kit. Pointless.

Liquid Knight said:

but twenty three different levels of traction control are for people who want to play Top Trumps instead of drive. Launch Control? If you need launch control on a road car you should not be allowed anywhere near a flipping road and have your balls cut off before you take a dump in the gene pool.

The last time I did a group test it was completely pointless because I couldn't tell one car from another apart from the badge in the middle of the steering wheel.

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1. Which every day run of the mill every day cars come with 23 levels of traction control and launch control???

2. I suppose that was when you were working for topgear magazine standing in for the stig between SAS missions

I think ESC is a great idea, because now and again we can be put in an emergency situation where something totally unpredictable happens and a rapid change of direction is required

1/ The kind of cars people play Top Trumps with instead of drive but by all means take half a quote out of context and question it.

2/ The last group test I did was for a disabled neighbor who wanted to know what car to get from Motorbility. Focus, Kia Cee'd and Vauxhall Astra.

He got a Skoda in the end. Good choice.

Liquid Knight said:

1/ The kind of cars people play Top Trumps with instead of drive but by all means take half a quote out of context and question it.



2/ The last group test I did was for a disabled neighbor who wanted to know what car to get from Motorbility. Focus, Kia Cee'd and Vauxhall Astra.

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1. And what cars are these? (Definitely didn't take anything out of context)

2. So when you say "group test" you mean you went and test drove a couple of cars, which is pointless for someone with disabilities as you can't advise how well he can get in and out of a car or drive the car himself with his disabilities. But hey given that you test drive cars for the police who better to ask I need to tag Most Easterly Pandas in this he always likes a good laugh at your claims

Btw if you could t tell the difference how did you know he'd got a skoda

Liquid Knight said:

I can not stand modern cars. So many drivers aids Bono has threatened to do a charity single for them. Sure ABS and things to make the world a safer place are all well and good but twenty three different levels of traction control are for people who want to play Top Trumps instead of drive. Launch Control? If you need launch control on a road car you should not be allowed anywhere near a flipping road and have your balls cut off before you take a dump in the gene pool.

Styling or lack there of; they are all soulless homogeneous drones that look the same because they have been designed by computers, built by robots and signed off by committees. Park anything post 1998 in a busy carpark and loose it forever. The concept of individuality is a bygone myth because manufacturers are so busy copying each other none of them are prepared to be innovative.

Performance; they all go the same because manufacturers have their hands tied behind their backs by the EU, EPA and people who wear sandals all year round. The last time I did a group test it was completely pointless because I couldn't tell one car from another apart from the badge in the middle of the steering wheel.

So; are modern cars too good?

No, they're crap and when they go wrong you need a laptop instead of a tool kit. Pointless.

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Don't hold back

I understand where you are coming from with pointless configuration options, but you're talking the very top strata of performance cars and hot hatches there if we take the 23 as an exaggeration to make a point obviously. I'm guessing your in the Clarkson camp of get someone at the company to lock it in the best settings forevermore rather than buying a do it yourself job. Or nothing at all.

Dull cars aren't new...the 90s was an era of jelly mould styling, it stands out now as designs have gone off in a much more sharply detailed and stylised direction. In 20 years cars around now will stand out.

All cars being the same....well there is no such thing as an utterly crap car anymore they are all far more, grippy, comfortable, better equipped etc etc. The wide variation between bad and good has closed right down, and some of the things that made one car be special over another may well have gone with that.

Interested in what your take on the modern steering wheel is...how many buttons is too many? The Mazda only has 17...although some are multi function rockers. It effectively renders most of the dash redundant..

I'd go pre 98 for an additional weekend car but on the way home on a wet Wednesday night after a long day a heated armchair with cruise/climate control and a good stereo has it's charms. Yes if it breaks down you need a laptop but it's less likely to break down...so swings and rounderbouts.

AndyRKett said:

I feel at the moment a lot of these driver aides are really just on the forefront of the self driving car revolution, Volvos scan for pedestrians bikes and animals and can brake and predict if something is going to cross into the car's path. Most manufactures have self parking in some form, auto braking, auto lights, auto wipers, my new car has auto mainbeams. All round scanning for blind spots and such.
All the self driving technology is more or less out on the road it's just waiting for someone to bring it all together in a commercial car and cut through the red tape.

To be honest I'd rather computers be in charge of the cars than most of the muppets on the road

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TBH the day self driving cars happen is the day I seriously debate a bus pass. I like the mechanical action of driving, I buy cars that have a good "handshake" so short positive gearbox, smooth progressive brakes, linear throttle, well weighted steering. It's getting harder and harder to find a car with all of the above

StevenRB45 said:

TBH the day self driving cars happen is the day I seriously debate a bus pass. I like the mechanical action of driving, I buy cars that have a good "handshake" so short positive gearbox, smooth progressive brakes, linear throttle, well weighted steering. It's getting harder and harder to find a car with all of the above

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I don't like the idea of self driving cars at all!

puntofan01 said:

I don't like the idea of self driving cars at all!

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Why

Most Easterly Pandas said:

Why

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I just don't, lol! I can't explain it, but I'm just really uncomfortable with the thought of a car being operated by computers rather than a driver.

puntofan01 said:

I just don't, lol! I can't explain it, but I'm just really uncomfortable with the thought of a car being operated by computers rather than a driver.

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Trains manage it without issue, so I can't see what the issue is personally. I take it you've never been on the DRL then