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Old 1 Week Ago   #676
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

My issue isnít the money as such. Itís the reality of what our love of cars is doing to the planet. And not even for the love of the rainforests, but for what itís doing to people like you and me in the smoggy cities like London and worse. Those are the things that could wipe out humanity if we donít get our acts together.

And whilst driving a small car around doesnít necessarily stop this issue, driving the smallest car for your needs certainly does. Itís taking a little bit of responsibility at the personal level.

Overtaking? What do you need to over take? Youíll easily overtake slow lorries at 56mph, slow tractors and farm vehicles, horses, cyclists? And you donít even need to break the speed limit to do it. Even in a 1.0 you could do that.

I think the issue comes in that ďI want my BMW fast enough to overtake the other guys BMWĒ on the motorway... and being able to pull out in front of people etc.. drive away fast and what not.

I have to drop to fourth in the Panda when fully laden to get up steep hills, sometimes 3rd.. and even when Iím kicking the sh#t out of it to keep up at 60 Iím probably still burning less fuel, less Co2 and what not at the same time. Itís not the worst thing in the world when me, three others and a bunch of junk in the boot is being propelled at 60mph without sweating! Personally for me, that fact is good enough.

Sure, the reality is people who have the money should get what they want and enjoy it, and theyíre certainly not bad people for doing it. I love seeing people who work hard and earn their money enjoy it in weird and wonderful ways. But I think people need to realise the bigger picture and drop the ego. It wonít happen.

But it sounds like myself and puntofan01 have grown up with some of the smallest cars around and have seen first hand how families can get by with them.

Personally I take pleasure in getting by with the least power and ego possible. If more other people did the same I think the world would be a slightly better place.

On the DPF thing, Iíve known a few relatives now with different makes of Diesel engine from Zafira, Yaris and Leon ... they all drive like maniacs .. high mileage jobs that involve home visits and whatnot and despite the dealer saying to floor it on the motorway two out of three opted to delete the DPF altogether.....great for the environment and air quality alright. The third is just holding on and vowing to never buy another diesel again after seeing the likes of Toyota struggle with it....of course Toyota dont have the luxury of the EU letting them get away with murder as Vauxhall (Opel) and Seat (VW) - disgusting the whole situation.

Iím glad petrol AND diesels days are numbered. Even if it means compromising or taking the bus.

Anyway. Went a bit off topic!
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Old 1 Week Ago   #677
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
I'm not a big fan of large 4x4s but they do have their place, as do sports cars and even super cars, if someone else is paying the bills then it doesn't matter to me, if I had to pick on any one group it would be people carries, there are far more of them about, hugely less efficient then their normal proportioned alternative, weight more, and the majority of owners only have one or two children, doesn't exactly warrant a bus to move the family about.
I thought that, but then my sister had 3 young kids. They had a Leon, which is similar to what my dad has in concept when we were young in the 80s (escorts and astras) but it just plain wasn't big enough. You can't fit 3 child seats side by side in a normal car. You can in a full size 4x4, but that's just as vast and even less efficient. Also there is now a requirement for booster seats until the age of 12 and they can't be backless until the age of 4..so you are going to be having child seats forever..then there's double buggies..and sports paraphernalia..and that your children may wish to bring friends..and you still need to put stuff in the boot. So they now have a Ford Galaxy

My personal pet peeve..sports suvs. I want a sports car off road battering ram please...preferably one that on a good day even with a diesel engine does 25mpg.. nonsense.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #678
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
The problem with that sort of thinking is that it quickly becomes hypocritical, I,e why a grande punto and not a panda? Why a panda and not one of those tiny micro cars or a smart car, why can't you just use a scooter or get the bus.....
I do like Pandas, and it's only the relatively low NCAP score and my liking of the Grandes' design that stopped my buying 1 back in 2014. Certainly, I would consider a newer shape 1 to replace my Grande when the sad day comes that it has to go, especially if I'm lucky enough to be living by meself by then. As it is though, I'm still doing a low annual mileage in a fairly small (especially by modern standards!) car that's capable of a real world 45+ mpg.

I do understand where you're coming from though.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #679
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Quote Originally Posted by SB1500 View Post
My issue isnít the money as such. Itís the reality of what our love of cars is doing to the planet. And not even for the love of the rainforests, but for what itís doing to people like you and me in the smoggy cities like London and worse. Those are the things that could wipe out humanity if we donít get our acts together.

And whilst driving a small car around doesnít necessarily stop this issue, driving the smallest car for your needs certainly does. Itís taking a little bit of responsibility at the personal level.

But it sounds like myself and puntofan01 have grown up with some of the smallest cars around and have seen first hand how families can get by with them.

Personally I take pleasure in getting by with the least power and ego possible. If more other people did the same I think the world would be a slightly better place.
Again you can't get on a soap box and start preaching the virtues of small cars and the environment, based purely on the need for everyone to drive small cars, a small car doesn't automattically mean a green or economic car. I grew up at a time when all cars would have a visible cloud of smoke following them about where ever they went from the tail pipe, as cars developed they got better, they introduced catalysts (everyone ranted about them) they introduced EGR (everyone still rants about. They now have DPFs and most manufacturers are going the small turbo route, every step the emissions get less and less, the economy goes up and the cost of the technology comes down.

So if people feel so concerned for the the environment then they should be driving new cars not just small cars.

One of my brothers just bought a new Mercedes GLC (medium sized 4x4) and if you look at the figures it produces less CO2 than a 10 year old grande punto or panda. (And weights about 1000kg more than the panda)

Much bigger car, much faster car, yet lower tail pipe emissions, also safer, with better crash protection for occupants and pedestrians, made with materials which are now designed to be more easily recycled and designed to have less harmful materials.

The upshot here is that a new fat bloated SUV driven by a bloke in a suit with no patience, is now more environmentally friendly than an old small Fiat.....

You also state a case for Ego, ego isn't about having the biggest and best and can just as easily apply to those who believe they are saving the planet with a small old car, or preaching about organic, home made, vegan friendly hand knitted yogurt while wearing clothing made from recycled bin bags. (Not talking about you just painting a picture of a certain stereotype)

It's far easier and better just to let people get on with their own choices than worry yourself about them, as it's guaranteed there isn't a BMW forum where someone is saying

"you know what annoys the hell out of me, is those people in 10 year old fiats, who do they think they are hey?"

They really couldn't care less.
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Last edited by AndyRKett; 1 Week Ago at 09:50.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #680
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
One of my brothers just bought a new Mercedes GLC (medium sized 4x4) and if you look at the figures it produces less CO2 than a 10 year old grande punto or panda. (And weights about 1000kg more than the panda)

Much bigger car, much faster car, yet lower tail pipe emissions, also safer, with better crash protection for occupants and pedestrians, made with materials which are now designed to be more easily recycled and designed to have less harmful materials.

The upshot here is that a new fat bloated SUV driven by a bloke in a suit with no patience, is now more environmentally friendly than an old small Fiat.....
Got to ask though, how many mpg does he ACTUALLY get out of the merc? Given how farcical the official mpg and emissions figures are these days.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #681
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
Got to ask though, how many mpg does he ACTUALLY get out of the merc? Given how farcical the official mpg and emissions figures are these days.


Given that the Germanís arenít too accurate with their mathematics concerning emissions and what have you I wouldnít buy any of those figures ;-)
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Old 1 Week Ago   #682
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Quote Originally Posted by SB1500 View Post
Given that the Germanís arenít too accurate with their mathematics concerning emissions and what have you I wouldnít buy any of those figures ;-)
Probably about as accurate as Fiat has been in recent years which is "not even vaguely" accurate.

You can look here https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/fiat

Where people have reported their own MPG results and the site calculates the accuracy of the official figures based on what real owners are reporting. The 500 gets only 72% accurate the grande only 90% accurate the panda only 92%, however it's worth noting for small cars the grande and panda, their fuel economy figures where not great to start with and they still over estimated them
Remember Fiat are in trouble over their emissions claims as well 😉

There hasn't been a significant increase in economy until about 7-8 years ago when manufacturers started taking things a lot more seriously as everyone went out and bought diesels instead of their more thirsty petrol counterparts.
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Last edited by AndyRKett; 1 Week Ago at 14:17.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #683
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

And the MPG claims for the Twinair are woefully inaccurate.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #684
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Come on now, I am inclined to be biased towards Fiat guys. No secret there ;-)
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Old 1 Week Ago   #685
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
Where people have reported their own MPG results and the site calculates the accuracy of the official figures based on what real owners are reporting. The 500 gets only 72% accurate the grande only 90% accurate the panda only 92%, however it's worth noting for small cars the grande and panda, their fuel economy figures where not great to start with and they still over estimated them
Remember Fiat are in trouble over their emissions claims as well 😉
To be fair though, the Grande and Panda economy was seen as pretty good when they were designed.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #686
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Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
To be fair though, the Grande and Panda economy was seen as pretty good when they were designed.
If you wear rose tinted glasses, absolutely, take those glasses off and you see the figures from other manufacturers.... like the Corsa D which got largely better figures than the grande... for example.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #687
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

A very quick look at mk3 corsas, and there's no massive difference in mpg.
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
Probably about as accurate as Fiat has been in recent years which is "not even vaguely" accurate.

You can look here https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/fiat

Where people have reported their own MPG results and the site calculates the accuracy of the official figures based on what real owners are reporting. The 500 gets only 72% accurate the grande only 90% accurate the panda only 92%, however it's worth noting for small cars the grande and panda, their fuel economy figures where not great to start with and they still over estimated them
Remember Fiat are in trouble over their emissions claims as well 😉

There hasn't been a significant increase in economy until about 7-8 years ago when manufacturers started taking things a lot more seriously as everyone went out and bought diesels instead of their more thirsty petrol counterparts.
Fiat is around the industry average. This suggests they don't lie significantly more or, indeed, significantly less than anyone else.
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

what about the huge environmental impact of manufacturing a new car ?
No government appears willing to address this issue at present, huge economic pressures appear to trump the environment.
We need to be thinking much further ahead in all areas.
I don't have children but try not live my life building up debts , financial or environmental or otherwise , for younger people to have to try and deal with later.
Younger people are really getting a raw deal , successive governments living beyond the country's means, borrowing more and more without having a plan to pay off the ever mounting debt.
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Last edited by jackwhoo; 1 Week Ago at 21:00.
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

You beat me to it, lol! I had been thinking along those lines meself. The manufacturer scrappage schemes are even more evironmental bad news: by all means, recycle a car when it dies, but to scrap it when it's still perfectly good, just old, is unnecessary environmental damage.
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