Technical 2.8JTD Ducato motorhome, engine hesitancy

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Technical 2.8JTD Ducato motorhome, engine hesitancy

Jaguarnut

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Hello all.
I have recently bought a well maintained Ducato Maxi based motorhome which has done 35,000 well maintained miles. The vehicle is a 2001 registered 2.8 JTD (M13 spec i.e. no EGR valve), 232 version which is a pre-facelift model.:cool:
I have an issue which refuses to be found and I am not sure if it is a fault or a trait with these vehicles. I have nothing to compare my wagon with.
To describe the issue then. On light throttle openings with the engine thoroughly warm, the issue can only be described as 'hesitancy' where the engine seems unable to make it's mind up whether to accelerate or decelerate. This can range from a 'seat-of-trousers' feeling of something, to noticable surging that a passenger has readily noticed. It is not specific to gear or engine speed, but one can usually induce it in 4th gear easily between 40 - 50 mph. One can also either open throttle further, or release it slightly and the problem goes away. When cold, the engine can seem a bit jumpy.
Under the warranty that came included with the purchase, the wagon has spent a good amount of time with a Fiat Professional Dealer.:( Unfortunately, it is a relatively new franchise and by their own admission see few x230 ducatos. They see a lot more x250's. However, they started with the basics. The rear gearbox mount was changed as I pointed out it seemed weak. That improved the general drivability no end.;) The Fiat diagnostic pc (i have forgotton the name) has revealed no fault codes. The electronic throttle is fine, with the larger of the two voltages reaching about 4.5v on full throttle. I have driven the vehicle with the pc connected and the Technician has taken all sorts of graphs whilst I demonstrated the fault and nothing shows up. Demanded pressure = actual pressure for the fuel rail etc. A new fuel filter & air filter has been fitted (genuine fiat). The coolant temperature seemed low. The thermostat and the temperature sender (for the ECU) were changed and that improved the temperature slightly (average 91/92 degrees). I understand that actual fuel pressure and 'leak-off' checks were performed - all OK. The Fiat fault 'database' suggested checking the part number of the common rail fuel pressure sensor, as some vehicles needed a modified item. The right one is fitted! The Technician started to suspect a problem with either the injectors or the fuel pump. However after contacting Fiat technical (no help apparently!) and the Bosch Injection specialist in Bristol, they said these issues were normal for Common Rail engines and the garage would waste their time sending them for testing.
After all this though, the engine idles smoothly, picks up well, pulls like a train and otherwise impresses!!! (And I'm used to 3.2 and 4.2 six cylinder petrol Jaguars (My other toys!!!):D
So, do I have an issue or is this simply a trait of the vehicle? I do not know. Talking to a couple of other owners, they seem not to have the problem - or is simply they do not notice it? I would certainly appreciate any guidance either way as both the supplying Motorhome dealer and the Fiat garage are stumped.:bang:
 
Has your X230 got a drive-by-wire throttle?

If so, Have the Fiat Dealership checked this is working correctly?

Also, which Bosch Diesel Specialist did they refer to??

There is a very good Diesel Injection specialist in Yate, called Shaun Arkinstall if you need some expertise of a 2nd opinion. He is very conversant with Bosch Systems and Common Rail Systems.

He may be worth a try!

We have had him work on our 244 2.8JTD and recommend him highly!
 
Hi John CS. Yes, my wagon is drive-by-wire and it has checked out fine on the diagnostic pc. I saw the results myself. The software declared no errors present and the voltages of the two tracks were rising and falling with the pedal movement, max voltage about 4.5v on full throttle.

I'm not sure what Injection specialist was consulted. All I know that it was in Bristol, a firm that the Dealership I am going to uses for all it's injection issues, including trucks. They are also LDV & Daf franchised workshop.

Thanks for the tip about the chap in Yate. I may have to take up that idea if this thread proves that my problem is a fault as opposed to a trait of the vehicle to live with!!!
 
4.5V is right on the money for the accelerator!

He is on the Industrial park in Yate. Follow the signs for the Recycle Centre (tip), as you turn left into the road for the tip, look right and he is in a unit there!

Hope you sort it bud!(y)
 
Thanks for your help, John CS.

I've just returned from a lonf weekend in the Motorhome, which gave me chance to get more used to the charecteristics of the Ducato.

The hesitancy/surging of the engine can occur in any gear, and as I have already said, it is on part throttle, usually with the engine at lowish speeds, i.e. less tha 2500 rpm. when it occurs one can open the throttle further or back off and it goes away. It will also happen when the engine is cold.

When the problem occurs (which is quite frequently on mixed "A" road driving), I've noticed that the tacho does not waver at all remaining steady at the indicated RPM. Presumably, along with the absence of any warning light or code, would suggest that this problem is not a "Management" system issue, but more either mechanical or fuel related.

Has anyone else any thoughts please? Although I ahve had the rear gearbox mount changed, I'm beginning to wonder if this is actually as basic as the engine mounts being a bit weak?

Could it be the Injectors? Bad pintel seal and/or poor spray pattern perhaps?
 
Its not automatic is it????? sounds similar to some auto gearbox fluctuation??? FF
 
Hi Fistral Fig. No it is a manual version. Actually, given the write-ups about Ducato Gearboxes, mine changes very nice. But then I have replaced the gearbox oil and fixed some dodgy rubber mounts fitted to the gearstick mounting frame. These made quite a difference!
 
Could it be the Injectors? Bad pintel seal and/or poor spray pattern perhaps?

Air in the system used to cause surging in the Citroen/Peugeot XUD engines, usually down to bad seals in the fuel lines or bad knowledge of changing fuel filters!

Have you ruled this out????


Injectors do have to go sometime, but I'm on my original set at nearly 147,000 miles, but this could cause the problem! the only difference regarding my injectors are that the engine doesn't sound so dieselly now and a lot smoother than when it was new!
 
I did enquire about air leaks but trhe garage ruled this out, but I really did not know on what premise. Presumably as the common rail actual pressure matches exactly the ECU demanded pressure (graphicaly using the diagnostics on the road), there would be no air content - but I may be very wrong.:confused:

A good point about the fuel filter. There was an aftermarket version fitted which was seeping fuel. A genuine Fiat version is now fitted and is bone dry.:)
 
Hello all.
I have recently bought a well maintained Ducato Maxi based motorhome which has done 35,000 well maintained miles. The vehicle is a 2001 registered 2.8 JTD (M13 spec i.e. no EGR valve), 232 version which is a pre-facelift model.:cool:
I have an issue which refuses to be found and I am not sure if it is a fault or a trait with these vehicles. I have nothing to compare my wagon with.
To describe the issue then. On light throttle openings with the engine thoroughly warm, the issue can only be described as 'hesitancy' where the engine seems unable to make it's mind up whether to accelerate or decelerate. This can range from a 'seat-of-trousers' feeling of something, to noticable surging that a passenger has readily noticed. It is not specific to gear or engine speed, but one can usually induce it in 4th gear easily between 40 - 50 mph. One can also either open throttle further, or release it slightly and the problem goes away. When cold, the engine can seem a bit jumpy.
Under the warranty that came included with the purchase, the wagon has spent a good amount of time with a Fiat Professional Dealer.:( Unfortunately, it is a relatively new franchise and by their own admission see few x230 ducatos. They see a lot more x250's. However, they started with the basics. The rear gearbox mount was changed as I pointed out it seemed weak. That improved the general drivability no end.;) The Fiat diagnostic pc (i have forgotton the name) has revealed no fault codes. The electronic throttle is fine, with the larger of the two voltages reaching about 4.5v on full throttle. I have driven the vehicle with the pc connected and the Technician has taken all sorts of graphs whilst I demonstrated the fault and nothing shows up. Demanded pressure = actual pressure for the fuel rail etc. A new fuel filter & air filter has been fitted (genuine fiat). The coolant temperature seemed low. The thermostat and the temperature sender (for the ECU) were changed and that improved the temperature slightly (average 91/92 degrees). I understand that actual fuel pressure and 'leak-off' checks were performed - all OK. The Fiat fault 'database' suggested checking the part number of the common rail fuel pressure sensor, as some vehicles needed a modified item. The right one is fitted! The Technician started to suspect a problem with either the injectors or the fuel pump. However after contacting Fiat technical (no help apparently!) and the Bosch Injection specialist in Bristol, they said these issues were normal for Common Rail engines and the garage would waste their time sending them for testing.
After all this though, the engine idles smoothly, picks up well, pulls like a train and otherwise impresses!!! (And I'm used to 3.2 and 4.2 six cylinder petrol Jaguars (My other toys!!!):D
So, do I have an issue or is this simply a trait of the vehicle? I do not know. Talking to a couple of other owners, they seem not to have the problem - or is simply they do not notice it? I would certainly appreciate any guidance either way as both the supplying Motorhome dealer and the Fiat garage are stumped.:bang:
I have a 2001 2.8jtd and it is displaying the same problems as your motorhome. My local partco mechanic has found various fault codes on diagnostic, but he doesnt know what they mean. When he clears the codes the van behaves ok for a while. My injector light is on permanently and nothing seems to turn it off. I am looking for someone to tell me how to decipher fault codes. Main dealers too expensive-theycould easily spend more than it is worth!!!!!
 
Hi i have a 2001 2.8jtd with the same problem did you manage to get to the bottom of it ????? I also have a problem with the gear change from second to third and third to fourth and was wondering if you have had any similar probs
col
 
Hi.
When you say surging do you mean the engine actually accelerates, or is it dropping power then pulling back to the original power?
In other words would you get the same feeling if you lifted your foot off the accelerator slightly then went back on? Or is it more like squeezing the accelerator and then backing it off again?
 
have you checked out the M A F sensor ?. i think it should have shown a fault on diagnostic test, but maybe not, try disconnecting plug from m a f sensor, take vehicle for a run see if there,s any change in perfomance,


Eric
 
I can't give an answer from personal experience but I have read somewhere that the pre-facelift 2.8JTD's suffered from an 'issue' with either the wiring or a connector to the throttle.

If so presumably this is more likely to show up when the vehicle is in motion rather than on a static test.

Apparently the cure was a new harness from throttle to ECU but was resolved in the facelift models (easily identified by the black speedo & RPM dials)
 
Hi, check this old post, it may help. From memory, the eng check light came on when the fault occurred.
03-12-2010 Replies: 6
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(T) Ducato 2.8JTD 2001
Views: 2,910
Posted By Arkk
 
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At last, I have found someone else with the same problem as me.

The problem usually occurs at 2200-2400 revs at light throttle. You can be in any gear.

It's feels as though you have lifted your right foot momentarily - when in fact your foot hasn't moved.

Fiat have looked - there are no codes present so they are at a loss.

For peace of mind they changed the throttle body and the wiring - but no joy. I have changed the mass air flow meter - it improved slightly, ie slightly less jerky, but the problem is still there.

Frustratingly though, the problem first occuedr after taking the van in to have a warning light resolved. The van drove very well until that point. The error code suggested it was the throttle body which was changed. The light went out and has stayed out every since. However, since that date I now have this hesitation which they cannot resolve.

I have found this really frustarting and annoying sometimes.

Has anyone found a cure?

Yours in hope, Tony
 
Hi Tviall,
I have same problem with camper Ducato 2001 2,8 JTD.
Did you fix it?
I heve new gas pedal, injectors, fuel pump, injector pump,turbocharger,pressure gage.
problem is still.
Im crazy. :bang:

Martin from Czech Republic
 
Hello everyone. It has been a while since this thread was alive but I anyway wonder if any of you ever got your issue sorted?

I've recently bought a Dethleffs motorhome based on the 2001 Ducato 2.8 JTD with Sofim 8140.43S engine. It has 106.000 km on the clock and runs fine apart from this exact issue where you can feel the engine hesitating at around 2200-2400 rpm under light load.

Does it even have a mass air flow sensor? I've been looking at the hoses and feel a bit stupid that I cannot seem to find the mass air flow sensor... Unfortunately I have not made 5 posts yet so I cannot attach picture links, yet. I think I spot the MAP in the inlet manifold, but no MAF?

Would be great to learn from your previous experiences how this beauty can be put into top trim again. Thanks a lot from Sweden!
 
A similar thing can afflict Moto Guzzi bike engines, viz- at intermediate, low throttle openings, the same symtoms amd also some surging of power and revs. This has now been traced to a weak cam chain tensioner spring and modified parts are feely available and the fix widely known now amongst owners. So, is it possible that a cambelt tension issue is giving a similar thing on the Ducato engines? It need not be loose enough to slip, but it may be the case that it would slip, if loose enough to cause the indicated symtons. Just a thought! The end result being that the timing will wander unless the engine is under load and speed increasing or decreasing; this is the thing with the bike engines= the chain is not being kept tight by an indresing throttle. I own one but have not had this show up yet, but have only done 8 miles on it yet!!
 
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