F123C said:

Interesting that you mention the Toyota Corolla, as my daily driver (my Bravo is used at weekends)is an older model Corolla with only 16,000 miles ( c. 26,000 kms) and I much prefer the ride quality running on Uniroyal Rainmaster 175/65R14 tyres, admittedly it does wallow a bit and gets a bit over-excited in bends if pushing-on a bit!!.(And, No, I'm not going to uprate the springs/dampers, I'm of an age where comfort is more important than razor-sharp handling

In the past I've fitted aftermarket adjustable dampers/shocks and experimented to find the best setting for me.(used to fit Koni's).

Al.

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Well I mentioned the corolla because I used to have a 2001 model before the bravo . It also had 14 inch wheels, no ABS, and a strange tendency to want to roll over . I absolutely loved it though. It never broke down and it was the most comfortable car I've ever sat in. It's actually a very good car to compliment your Bravo because you'll appreciate what each of them offers.

I'm also not a big fan of modding cars but I was contemplating the bilsteins because of the short life of my initial set of shock absorbers.

KHALED25 said:

Well I mentioned the corolla because I used to have a 2001 model before the bravo . It also had 14 inch wheels, no ABS, and a strange tendency to want to roll over . I absolutely loved it though. It never broke down and it was the most comfortable car I've ever sat in. It's actually a very good car to compliment your Bravo because you'll appreciate what each of them offers.

I'm also not a big fan of modding cars but I was contemplating the bilsteins because of the short life of my initial set of shock absorbers.

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As well as more comfort the Corolla 1.4 Petrol returns 44.9mpg (6.28 l/100km) versus 37 mpg (7.62 l/100km) on my Bravo 1.4, 90hp, the Corolla has irrc 97 bhp and all this from an engine design c. 10 years older!!!! Plus nothing has broken, fallen-off or become discoloured unlike the Bravo - d/s sunvisor, both f+r badges, 1 front fog light !!!

I too, am not a big fan of modding cars. With a background as a mechanic (also studied vehicle design/ technology at 3rd level) I believe the manufacturer knows more than the average guy who reads a magazine and is swept along by an advert., not realising what he may be upsetting by his 'mods' e.g. lowering cars/fitting stiffer/shorter springs, fitting different wheel/tyre sizes than have been tested by the factory, fitting wheel spacers, 'chipping' the ecu, the list goes on....
Rant over, their car, their money, their choice, all I ask is please don't involve me in your accident when it all goes wrong because of your ill-advised 'tuning'. In recent years here in Ireland there has been a significant number of 'single vehicle' accidents where road conditions, weather, drug/alcohol use etc were not contributing factors, excessive speed is usually blamed but I've noticed the vehicles were all small hatchbacks modified as per the above by young men who didn't know as much as they thought, they and their passengers paid a very heavy price.

Al.

F123C said:

As well as more comfort the Corolla 1.4 Petrol returns 44.9mpg (6.28 l/100km) versus 37 mpg (7.62 l/100km) on my Bravo 1.4, 90hp, the Corolla has irrc 97 bhp and all this from an engine design c. 10 years older!!!! Plus nothing has broken, fallen-off or become discoloured unlike the Bravo - d/s sunvisor, both f+r badges, 1 front fog light !!!

I too, am not a big fan of modding cars. With a background as a mechanic (also studied vehicle design/ technology at 3rd level) I believe the manufacturer knows more than the average guy who reads a magazine and is swept along by an advert., not realising what he may be upsetting by his 'mods' e.g. lowering cars/fitting stiffer/shorter springs, fitting different wheel/tyre sizes than have been tested by the factory, fitting wheel spacers, 'chipping' the ecu, the list goes on....
Rant over, their car, their money, their choice, all I ask is please don't involve me in your accident when it all goes wrong because of your ill-advised 'tuning'. In recent years here in Ireland there has been a significant number of 'single vehicle' accidents where road conditions, weather, drug/alcohol use etc were not contributing factors, excessive speed is usually blamed but I've noticed the vehicles were all small hatchbacks modified as per the above by young men who didn't know as much as they thought, they and their passengers paid a very heavy price.

Al.

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Totally Agree. I don't have a lot of practical experience with cars but I've read enough about suspension to know that it's never a simple swap. Understanding how the suspension works in itself is very complicated, and its design is anything but simple. You can for example seriously compromise the handling of the car buy changing a one single aspect of the springs. The only mods I would find acceptable (but again I'm not into them) are simple aesthetic ones. I think that cars nowadays are generally neither easy to "modify", nor do they need to

About the engine though, I think the one you have on yours isn't giving you the mpg you'd like because its too underpowered IMO, especially in the torque department (only around 128 Nm if i remember correctly), and therefore needs to work too hard to provide good acceleration. The 120 hp t-jet and any version of the diesel engines will surely provide equal or even higher mpg than the corolla.

KHALED25 said:

Totally Agree. I don't have a lot of practical experience with cars but I've read enough about suspension to know that it's never a simple swap. Understanding how the suspension works in itself is very complicated, and its design is anything but simple. You can for example seriously compromise the handling of the car buy changing a one single aspect of the springs. The only mods I would find acceptable (but again I'm not into them) are simple aesthetic ones. I think that cars nowadays are generally neither easy to "modify", nor do they need to

About the engine though, I think the one you have on yours isn't giving you the mpg you'd like because its too underpowered IMO, especially in the torque department (only around 128 Nm if i remember correctly), and therefore needs to work too hard to provide good acceleration. The 120 hp t-jet and any version of the diesel engines will surely provide equal or even higher mpg than the corolla.

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Thanks for the above, I thought I was the only one who thought like this re: modifying cars. In my youth as a mechanic, I thought I knew it all and jumped in, feet first, changing things from standard , thinking I was better than the engineers at the Fiat factory.Big mistake! Fortunately, no-one got hurt, have to thank the Man above for that.
I agree with you that nowadays cars are neither easy to modify nor need to. Additionally, the value of the car when modified is often less than the original value plus the cost of the mods and probably has been compromised in the areas of driveability, reliability and/or safety. So modding a car is often a waste of time and money. I think it's probably wiser to save this money, sell your existing car and buy something faster ,i.e. if you want a sports car, sell the basic version and buy the sports version. That way you know that it will be safe, reliable and durable, having been designed and tested by engineers and will hold its value plus no problems with insurance cover, annual roadworthiness tests etc.
I think you quite right re the power/weight ratio of my basic 90hp model and the relatively poor fuel consumption. Its particularly noticeable in 5th gear, on slight inclines, 6th gear no good whatsoever. Undoubtedly the T-Jet or diesel models would be superior in both performance and economy.
I can't really afford to run 2 cars (retired now) so am thinking of possibly selling both and buy maybe an older Mercedes E Class (always wanted one, having worked for a while in the Middle East, got to drive a lot of luxury cars)
Re: power outputs, the thought just occurred to me , way back in the late 1960's when Fiat introduced their 1438cc twin cam in the 124 Sport Coupe the power output was 90 bhp at c. 6000rpm. Not a lot has changed in 45 years except fuel consumption and emissions maybe!!!

Best regards,

Al.

F123C said:

Thanks for the above, I thought I was the only one who thought like this re: modifying cars. In my youth as a mechanic, I thought I knew it all and jumped in, feet first, changing things from standard , thinking I was better than the engineers at the Fiat factory.Big mistake! Fortunately, no-one got hurt, have to thank the Man above for that.
I agree with you that nowadays cars are neither easy to modify nor need to. Additionally, the value of the car when modified is often less than the original value plus the cost of the mods and probably has been compromised in the areas of driveability, reliability and/or safety. So modding a car is often a waste of time and money. I think it's probably wiser to save this money, sell your existing car and buy something faster ,i.e. if you want a sports car, sell the basic version and buy the sports version. That way you know that it will be safe, reliable and durable, having been designed and tested by engineers and will hold its value plus no problems with insurance cover, annual roadworthiness tests etc.
I think you quite right re the power/weight ratio of my basic 90hp model and the relatively poor fuel consumption. Its particularly noticeable in 5th gear, on slight inclines, 6th gear no good whatsoever. Undoubtedly the T-Jet or diesel models would be superior in both performance and economy.
I can't really afford to run 2 cars (retired now) so am thinking of possibly selling both and buy maybe an older Mercedes E Class (always wanted one, having worked for a while in the Middle East, got to drive a lot of luxury cars)
Re: power outputs, the thought just occurred to me , way back in the late 1960's when Fiat introduced their 1438cc twin cam in the 124 Sport Coupe the power output was 90 bhp at c. 6000rpm. Not a lot has changed in 45 years except fuel consumption and emissions maybe!!!

Best regards,

Al.

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Good points! Well you only need to check the amount of threads about someone complaining that something went wrong with his engine or turbo after a remap or adding a tuning box to know that the people who engineered the car do know better. Not to mention the added strain to all the power train components to know that they'll never last as long as they are intended to.

As for the engine, fortunately the 120bhp t-jet has made me hate driving an car with a naturally aspirated engine, just because of the great amount of torque that forced induction adds. It also depends on how its tuned though. On the 120hp version, the small turbo produces its maximum torque at only 1750 rpm, so I rarely ever have to rev it, which helps with the fuel economy. You can also accelerate in 6th from as early as 70 km/h and you won't feel the need to downshift at all, even when accelerating from above 100km/h.

About power outputs, the main restriction ever since the 80s has been emissions. Otherwise, the base model bravo would have probably been a 300 hp engine. The euro regulations make it a real challenge for manufacturers to try to reduce emissions yet still provide more power, but many times they have to settle for lower emissions for the same power. But you can't really fault fiat because their turbocharged engines are frankly all great. The 1.4 Multiair providing 170bhp is a good example, and the diesels have always been one of their strongest points.

Oh and as for the E-class, you can't really go wrong with the previous generation one (2002 till 2008 I think). My old man had one and it was quick, comfortable, and reliable.

Great conversation BTW

I'd point out cost is another factor when a car is designed. Cost to build as well as running costs.

One of the first things I did when I got my Bravo was replace the discs and pads - the standard set up was dangerous IMO.

Fergie said:

I'd point out cost is another factor when a car is designed. Cost to build as well as running costs.

One of the first things I did when I got my Bravo was replace the discs and pads - the standard set up was dangerous IMO.

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Agreed, but sometimes more can be spent on cheaper models in terms of R&D, testing etc than on dearer models because of anticipated larger sales volumes covering such expenditure.

I'd be interested in hearing more re. your comment on the standard brakes and what you changed? I've found the std. brakes fine for my normal kind of driving but I've experienced a sensation of reduced rate of retardation following repeated applications from speed but not fullblown brake fade.

Al.

Same here, I find the brakes extremely satisfying. Having ventilated disks on the fronts also helps with brake fade. Check your tires (type/ condition), they may not have enough grip to provide good braking performance.

Accelerating in 6th gear is one of the most frequent causes of the m32 gearbox bearing failing.
I wouldn't do that anymore.

aurick86 said:

Accelerating in 6th gear is one of the most frequent causes of the m32 gearbox bearing failing.
I wouldn't do that anymore.

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Thanks for the heads up. Is the dualogic based on the m32 though? because that's the transmission I have.

Sorry but i don't know, i think it's not.

aurick86 said:

Sorry but i don't know, i think it's not.

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I guess it's going to take some digging. Any automated manual is based on some manual transmission though, since basically all they do is add the control unit.

aurick86 said:

Accelerating in 6th gear is one of the most frequent causes of the m32 gearbox bearing failing.
I wouldn't do that anymore.

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I can't see how that works? Its just a rubbish and poorly designed gearbox and bearing. Define 'accelerating'. There isn't much more of a load than when cruising in 6th.

KHALED25 said:

Thanks for the heads up. Is the dualogic based on the m32 though? because that's the transmission I have.

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Yes it is, my M32 dualogic failed in 5/6th gear.

KHALED25 said:

Same here, I find the brakes extremely satisfying. Having ventilated disks on the fronts also helps with brake fade. Check your tires (type/ condition), they may not have enough grip to provide good braking performance.

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I'm talking about dry braking on decent goodyear tyres.

It could be that the standard pads my 1.9 150 came with were knackered, but the difference between fitting new grooved discs with green stuff pads was unreal. Not only for the reduction of dust, but also the difference in stopping power. I'm not talking about fade, but simple brake pressure.

Manufacturers want pads to last / keep costs down so they will never compete with proven performance parts.

Exhausts are a bit more of a dark art as again manufacturers are most concerned with noise and emission levels (again so they can sell the green credentials / reduce tax bands). If you know what you are doing, both power and economy can be increased - but so will emissions.

Fergie said:

I'm talking about dry braking on decent goodyear tyres.

It could be that the standard pads my 1.9 150 came with were knackered, but the difference between fitting new grooved discs with green stuff pads was unreal. Not only for the reduction of dust, but also the difference in stopping power. I'm not talking about fade, but simple brake pressure.

Manufacturers want pads to last / keep costs down so they will never compete with proven performance parts.

Exhausts are a bit more of a dark art as again manufacturers are most concerned with noise and emission levels (again so they can sell the green credentials / reduce tax bands). If you know what you are doing, both power and economy can be increased - but so will emissions.

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What discs did you fit?where were they from dude

Most Easterly Pandas said:

Yes it is, my M32 dualogic failed in 5/6th gear.

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All this time I thought we were safe from the gearbox failures LOL. What do you think I should do to keep it from failing?


@Fergie I'm with you about the exhaust parts but the reason I disagree about the brakes is that they have thankfully never let me down. The braking is linear and powerful. It has actually kept me from crashing many times since no one seems to know how to drive around here. The braking pads have also lasted me way longer than I ever expected them to: 45k km in frequent city driving with summer temperatures reaching 40c. It might be that you had a bad experience, but I didn't really try any aftermarket braking components since I didn't see the need to do it.

KHALED25 said:

All this time I thought we were safe from the gearbox failures LOL. What do you think I should do to keep it from failing?

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I know, I unfortunately fell victim while always thinking the same and that it wasn't the M32 gearbox. Personally, I'd either get rid or get a good warranty which will cover it. Mine happened at 94k miles, higher mileage than those in the manual gearbox front where issues normally happen at lower mileage, but that was 94k none abused standard miles without any remaps etc.

Unfortunately I got rid of the car with the issue. After £1300 for a clutch master cylinder issue last summer I'd fallen out of love with is and it was the straw which broke the camels back. Not acceptable on a <6 year old car imo and the main dealer experience last year was appalling also

Fergie said:

I'm talking about dry braking on decent goodyear tyres.

It could be that the standard pads my 1.9 150 came with were knackered, but the difference between fitting new grooved discs with green stuff pads was unreal. Not only for the reduction of dust, but also the difference in stopping power. I'm not talking about fade, but simple brake pressure.

Manufacturers want pads to last / keep costs down so they will never compete with proven performance parts.

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I've read the reason for the grooves in to dissipate/disperse the gas that builds up between discs and pads reducing friction/bite. I wonder how standard pads fitted to grooved discs would perform ? Maybe I'll go mill some grooves in one of my front discs but not the other side and see if there's any difference. :devil: (only joking)On second thought, there's already a groove on each pad, maybe I'll add a few more :devil:.

Al.

Most Easterly Pandas said:

I know, I unfortunately fell victim while always thinking the same and that it wasn't the M32 gearbox. Personally, I'd either get rid or get a good warranty which will cover it. Mine happened at 94k miles, higher mileage than those in the manual gearbox front where issues normally happen at lower mileage, but that was 94k none abused standard miles without any remaps etc.

Unfortunately I got rid of the car with the issue. After £1300 for a clutch master cylinder issue last summer I'd fallen out of love with is and it was the straw which broke the camels back. Not acceptable on a <6 year old car imo and the main dealer experience last year was appalling also

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£1300 for a clutch master cylinder job sounds crazy, was there any other work done included in this cost.

FWIW if I was unhappy with the main dealer experience (I assume you tried more than one) I'd find a good recommended (by someone I trust) independent workshop, for a clutch or gearbox problem I'd go to a specialist in these areas.

Many dealership mechanics, especially if youngish have very little experience of gearbox overhaul/repair simply because of the type of work that comes to a main dealer i.e. routine servicing,oil/brake pad/filters/timing belt changes on cars up to 3/4/5 years depending on man. warranty. Older cars tend to go to the independents, many of whom are excellent and cheaper than m.dealer.
It used to be said, To find a good garage that won't 'rip-you-off' and does good, reliable repairs,ask a Taxi owner.

Al.

F123C said:

£1300 for a clutch master cylinder job sounds crazy, was there any other work done included in this cost.

FWIW if I was unhappy with the main dealer experience (I assume you tried more than one) I'd find a good recommended (by someone I trust) independent workshop, for a clutch or gearbox problem I'd go to a specialist in these areas.

Many dealership mechanics, especially if youngish have very little experience of gearbox overhaul/repair simply because of the type of work that comes to a main dealer i.e. routine servicing,oil/brake pad/filters/timing belt changes on cars up to 3/4/5 years depending on man. warranty. Older cars tend to go to the independents, many of whom are excellent and cheaper than m.dealer.
It used to be said, To find a good garage that won't 'rip-you-off' and does good, reliable repairs,ask a Taxi owner.

Al.

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Unfortunatly choice of main dealer is limited when you've a dead car, you can't just take it from one to the other.

It went into a very highly regarded and reputable specialist before hand, but they held their hands up and said they were not 100% sure on the issue and although were happy taking the gearbox out and investigating further they said it could be a costly way about doing things. I appreciated their honesty, and they didn't charge me. I've used them for general service before the even have since.

You'll be lucky to find any independent specialist who's 100% happy and confident on working with a Fiat Selespeed system. And unfortunately main dealers seem to be no better, despite being the experts and having all the correct kit (supposidly)

They mis-diagnosed the slave cylinder (internal, so charged £700 for replacement slave and clutch with labour) then when the same fault was present they decided to check the externally mounted master, and this was £713 for the part. Total bill was £1400 (although I got away with £1300 as I had a voucher from something else). If they'd diagnosed the issue properly in the first place it'd have been £713 plus 2 hours labour.

They returned the car with bits left unassembled, were not apologetic and ever since when the car felt like it it wouldn't go into reverse - this issue they refused to acknowledge existed, despite getting it on video, and it only started since they'd had their hands on it. A full write up is in the pipeline, but there is a lot to put to paper, and get accurate so they can be shown for the monkeys they are without being accused of slander