Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report
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Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report
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re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Phoned dealer they checked by reg number of car, and said no updates on my vehicle
which is a june 2014 1.2 500
Phoned dealer they checked by reg number of car, and said no updates on my vehicle
which is a june 2014 1.2 500
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
That's annoying! Thanks for letting us know though. I have enquired at my dealer but no response yet. 'Auditt' was also going to speak to Fiat CS today so let's see if that brings any us any more info.
Phoned dealer they checked by reg number of car, and said no updates on my vehicle
which is a june 2014 1.2 500
That's annoying! Thanks for letting us know though. I have enquired at my dealer but no response yet. 'Auditt' was also going to speak to Fiat CS today so let's see if that brings any us any more info.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Hi Officina red,
If you look at the thread I quoted from the Panda section last week, I suggested to David Bliss that he asked the person who had apparently had this update to kindly provide the campaign number for it. IMO that is the key piece of info for everyone on here as it will give the dealer something specific to work from.
The fact there isn't anything pending against your reg number doesn't necessarily mean there is no update. In fact, the body software update my Panda had in April 2014 related to a campaign from late on in 2012 which I knew nothing about until ringing around getting quotes for a service It all boils down to communication within Fiat which, frankly, is hit and miss at the best of times.
Anyway, all the best with it.
Phoned dealer they checked by reg number of car, and said no updates on my vehicle
which is a june 2014 1.2 500
Hi Officina red,
If you look at the thread I quoted from the Panda section last week, I suggested to David Bliss that he asked the person who had apparently had this update to kindly provide the campaign number for it. IMO that is the key piece of info for everyone on here as it will give the dealer something specific to work from.
The fact there isn't anything pending against your reg number doesn't necessarily mean there is no update. In fact, the body software update my Panda had in April 2014 related to a campaign from late on in 2012 which I knew nothing about until ringing around getting quotes for a service
It all boils down to communication within Fiat which, frankly, is hit and miss at the best of times.Anyway, all the best with it.
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re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Hi Super Uwe I did think the same myself, that without a update ref number.
it would be very difficult to get anywhere, it just would be easy to get to dealer this week,
Just need to wait until someone can provide the ref number.
Hi Super Uwe I did think the same myself, that without a update ref number.
it would be very difficult to get anywhere, it just would be easy to get to dealer this week,
Just need to wait until someone can provide the ref number.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Spoke to CS today and they could not confirm any update as I need to speak to dealer.Spoke to dealer but they could not help over the phone as the "Master Technician" was the only person who would know.They told me the car needs to come in for a wiring mod so I will book it in next week and see if it gets an update.
Spoke to CS today and they could not confirm any update as I need to speak to dealer.Spoke to dealer but they could not help over the phone as the "Master Technician" was the only person who would know.They told me the car needs to come in for a wiring mod so I will book it in next week and see if it gets an update.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
I've been monitoring this thread with interest. I picked up a 2nd hand 500 1.2 on a '12' plate a couple of months back. On the test drive I just thought I needed to get the hang of the clutch, but now I'm convinced it's not me.
It is without doubt the worst car I've had with regard to getting the clutch and throttle right for a smooth take off from standstill and I've had plenty of cars including small engined ones and even cars with an "on-off" race clutch!
It's the unpredictability that's the killer, I cannot recreate the conditions at will that leave the engine on the verge of stalling and refusing to pick up, while you sit vulnerable at some junction. Yet it happens at the most unfortunate times when just trying to drive "naturally".
Admittedly I've just described the worst incarnation of the problem, but most of the time it requires constant mid-take off adjustment of the throttle and clutch to avoid mimicking a learner i.e. a screaming engine or near stall.
I dont deny that when I do get it right it leaves me a huge sense of satisfaction, but seriously if this is progress I'll take the one with the carburetor and a throttle and clutch connected by a cable please.
I've been monitoring this thread with interest. I picked up a 2nd hand 500 1.2 on a '12' plate a couple of months back. On the test drive I just thought I needed to get the hang of the clutch, but now I'm convinced it's not me.
It is without doubt the worst car I've had with regard to getting the clutch and throttle right for a smooth take off from standstill and I've had plenty of cars including small engined ones and even cars with an "on-off" race clutch!
It's the unpredictability that's the killer, I cannot recreate the conditions at will that leave the engine on the verge of stalling and refusing to pick up, while you sit vulnerable at some junction. Yet it happens at the most unfortunate times when just trying to drive "naturally".
Admittedly I've just described the worst incarnation of the problem, but most of the time it requires constant mid-take off adjustment of the throttle and clutch to avoid mimicking a learner i.e. a screaming engine or near stall.
I dont deny that when I do get it right it leaves me a huge sense of satisfaction, but seriously if this is progress I'll take the one with the carburetor and a throttle and clutch connected by a cable please.
David Bliss
Member
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Hi everybody,
I was in touch with the dealer last week. He promised to come back to me, but failed to do so. I rang them today, and they again denied any knowledge of an update. They wanted me to book the car in for another diagnostic and then they would tell me whether the car needed an update - as if they didn't know that the previous attempts had failed! It would be another 4 hours wasted.
We have tried to get Fiat to generally announce that there is a fix for the problem if they have one, but they haven't responded. I want to get rid of the car after all this trouble with it, but the dealer won't have it back, and I can't in all honesty sell to a private buyer. I have emailed CS to express my disgust at the way they have lied to us over the phone (but never put anything in writing) and later on tried to pretend that the problem doesn't exist, it is just our lack of driving skills. The engine hasn't got enough power low down to do hill starts without cooking the clutch, and allowing it to do a self launch will only get you about a yard before it stalls. If you allow it to self-launch on the flat it is likely to go into the back of the car in front before it slows down again.
I will follow the advice of trying to get a number for the update.
Hi everybody,
I was in touch with the dealer last week. He promised to come back to me, but failed to do so. I rang them today, and they again denied any knowledge of an update. They wanted me to book the car in for another diagnostic and then they would tell me whether the car needed an update - as if they didn't know that the previous attempts had failed! It would be another 4 hours wasted.
We have tried to get Fiat to generally announce that there is a fix for the problem if they have one, but they haven't responded. I want to get rid of the car after all this trouble with it, but the dealer won't have it back, and I can't in all honesty sell to a private buyer. I have emailed CS to express my disgust at the way they have lied to us over the phone (but never put anything in writing) and later on tried to pretend that the problem doesn't exist, it is just our lack of driving skills. The engine hasn't got enough power low down to do hill starts without cooking the clutch, and allowing it to do a self launch will only get you about a yard before it stalls. If you allow it to self-launch on the flat it is likely to go into the back of the car in front before it slows down again.
I will follow the advice of trying to get a number for the update.
Sweetsixteen
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re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Seems to me that all these so-called 'cures' suggested by various posters - ingenious though they are - are just work-arounds that disguise a continuing problem. They mask the symptoms but don't address the root cause, which is a right software shambles by a giant company that should know better.
Fiat should have sorted it years ago, not leave it to owners who have to live with such a bodge-up.
Seems to me that all these so-called 'cures' suggested by various posters - ingenious though they are - are just work-arounds that disguise a continuing problem. They mask the symptoms but don't address the root cause, which is a right software shambles by a giant company that should know better.
Fiat should have sorted it years ago, not leave it to owners who have to live with such a bodge-up.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
I think we need to join forces on this. If we can get as many owners as possible who are suffering from this issue together and make a joint complaint then they can't fob us off so easily. What about contacting Honest John directly? Or making videos of hill start attempts and posting them on a YouTube channel?
I think we need to join forces on this. If we can get as many owners as possible who are suffering from this issue together and make a joint complaint then they can't fob us off so easily. What about contacting Honest John directly? Or making videos of hill start attempts and posting them on a YouTube channel?
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David Bliss
Member
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
I agree that banding together would be a good idea. I did raise the problem as a safety issue with VOSA, as I have had some near misses when trying to pull away in traffic. I tried to get others to do the same, but this didn't work and my complaint was shelved as there weren't enough others complaining.
As mentioned, there has been a lot of smoke on the Forum trying to cloud the issue. I bought my new car as I thought it would give me some respite in maintaining a vehicle, instead I have been taking it to various people to try to find a solution since Fiat want to pretend there is nothing wrong.
If the problem is widely advertised by any means available Fiat would have to start taking some notice. It would also help if some independent tests were made on affected cars, perhaps a program such as Watchdog or organizations such as Trading Standards could help prove that the cars are not fit for purpose.
I do have rolling road results comparing my 09 Panda with the new one and these clearly show the lack of low down torque in the new car that makes it gutless at anything below motorway speeds. Up to about 3500 revs the old engine is streets ahead, and at idle is producing as much torque as the new one does at 2000 revs. This explains the problem with hill starts.
None of us are going to get anywhere with this as individuals. Come on guys lets pull together!
I agree that banding together would be a good idea. I did raise the problem as a safety issue with VOSA, as I have had some near misses when trying to pull away in traffic. I tried to get others to do the same, but this didn't work and my complaint was shelved as there weren't enough others complaining.
As mentioned, there has been a lot of smoke on the Forum trying to cloud the issue. I bought my new car as I thought it would give me some respite in maintaining a vehicle, instead I have been taking it to various people to try to find a solution since Fiat want to pretend there is nothing wrong.
If the problem is widely advertised by any means available Fiat would have to start taking some notice. It would also help if some independent tests were made on affected cars, perhaps a program such as Watchdog or organizations such as Trading Standards could help prove that the cars are not fit for purpose.
I do have rolling road results comparing my 09 Panda with the new one and these clearly show the lack of low down torque in the new car that makes it gutless at anything below motorway speeds. Up to about 3500 revs the old engine is streets ahead, and at idle is producing as much torque as the new one does at 2000 revs. This explains the problem with hill starts.
None of us are going to get anywhere with this as individuals. Come on guys lets pull together!
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
I'm sure this has been mentioned before but what it really needs is someone who's had the update done to tell us the Campaign Ref Number, usually on their invoice or stamped in the service book behind the main service stamps.
Then people can just go to a dealer and ask for that specific Campaign to be actioned on their vehicle. Annoyingly I don't work in a dealer anymore otherwise I'd go & ask the service dept. I don't understand why Fiat CS can't just tell people the ref number though, assuming they've phoned the 00800 3428 0000 number? Smacks of complete lack of coordination if they dunno the ref number.
However, people need to be aware that this only appears to affect a short term production run, it's not ALL 1.2 500's (and Panda's). The latest ones (ie delivered in the last month or so) appear fine so far, as do older ones up to the start of 2014. I think any issues with engines falling outside of this 'batch' need to be treated with caution as it could be nothing to do with the original fault people have experienced in this thread.
I'm sure this has been mentioned before but what it really needs is someone who's had the update done to tell us the Campaign Ref Number, usually on their invoice or stamped in the service book behind the main service stamps.
Then people can just go to a dealer and ask for that specific Campaign to be actioned on their vehicle. Annoyingly I don't work in a dealer anymore otherwise I'd go & ask the service dept. I don't understand why Fiat CS can't just tell people the ref number though, assuming they've phoned the 00800 3428 0000 number? Smacks of complete lack of coordination if they dunno the ref number.
However, people need to be aware that this only appears to affect a short term production run, it's not ALL 1.2 500's (and Panda's). The latest ones (ie delivered in the last month or so) appear fine so far, as do older ones up to the start of 2014. I think any issues with engines falling outside of this 'batch' need to be treated with caution as it could be nothing to do with the original fault people have experienced in this thread.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Personally I think it affects every single car with a 1.2 euro6 engine. I took delivery of mine less than a month ago and I have tried 2 different cars at the dealership that haven't even been registered yet as they were fresh off the delivery truck with the plastic protection still on and they all struggled to climb the ramp from the underground car park. If it only affected some cars then I am sure Fiat and the dealers would be prepared to fix them but I think that this a design/ecu fault and there is no fix. I doubt that there is even a software update available. The Honest John website is probably just quoting hearsay from forums like this one.
I assume that all 1.2 Euro6 2014 models are as bad as each other but some drivers haven't had to try a hill start or just accept it as normal after being told so by both Fiat and the dealers.
Personally I think it affects every single car with a 1.2 euro6 engine. I took delivery of mine less than a month ago and I have tried 2 different cars at the dealership that haven't even been registered yet as they were fresh off the delivery truck with the plastic protection still on and they all struggled to climb the ramp from the underground car park. If it only affected some cars then I am sure Fiat and the dealers would be prepared to fix them but I think that this a design/ecu fault and there is no fix. I doubt that there is even a software update available. The Honest John website is probably just quoting hearsay from forums like this one.
I assume that all 1.2 Euro6 2014 models are as bad as each other but some drivers haven't had to try a hill start or just accept it as normal after being told so by both Fiat and the dealers.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
A question for those with a 1.2 Euro6 500 or Panda:
If the car is stationary with the handbrake on, warmed up & idling in neutral, and (with your right foot well clear of the accelerator) you depress the clutch and then release it, what happens to the engine rpm?
A question for those with a 1.2 Euro6 500 or Panda:
If the car is stationary with the handbrake on, warmed up & idling in neutral, and (with your right foot well clear of the accelerator) you depress the clutch and then release it, what happens to the engine rpm?
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
With the engine warmed up, hand brake on and in neutral the engine idles at about 850 rpm.
If you depress the clutch and release it slowly the revs increase to 1000rpm. All of this is without touching the accelerator. If you depress and release the clutch quickly then the idling speed remains constant.
As has been mentioned on this forum previously you can actually pull away in first gear (on level ground) just by releasing the clutch without touching the accelerator and the car won't stall.
With the engine warmed up, hand brake on and in neutral the engine idles at about 850 rpm.
If you depress the clutch and release it slowly the revs increase to 1000rpm. All of this is without touching the accelerator. If you depress and release the clutch quickly then the idling speed remains constant.
As has been mentioned on this forum previously you can actually pull away in first gear (on level ground) just by releasing the clutch without touching the accelerator and the car won't stall.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Thanks Palma.
Ok, so is everyone else with a Eu6 car getting 1000rpm if they do this, or does it increase to a different figure?
What I'm thinking is there might be some individual variation between when the clutch sensor increases the rpm, and the biting point of the clutch - which would go some way to explaining why some Eu6 owners find this problem more annoying than others.
Thanks Palma.
Ok, so is everyone else with a Eu6 car getting 1000rpm if they do this, or does it increase to a different figure?
What I'm thinking is there might be some individual variation between when the clutch sensor increases the rpm, and the biting point of the clutch - which would go some way to explaining why some Eu6 owners find this problem more annoying than others.
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re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
I will try it tomorrow
I will try it tomorrow