re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

David Bliss said:

[FONT=&quot]They sold us a car that was not fit for purpose and should recompense us for the financial loss we have suffered.[/FONT]

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Just out of interest David, did you test drive the new Panda before buying it, or did you rely on your experience with the '09 car?

Unfortunately I'm noticing an increasing number of 'updated' products where the latest version is actually inferior to the one it replaced. Often, as with the Euro6 1.2, it's down to changing legislation (weedkillers that don't kill weeds as well as they used to, vacuum cleaners that don't suck like the old one did are just two of many examples that come to mind).

For most of the twentieth century, we all got used to the next generation of a product being an improvement on its predecessor. In the twenty-first century, that's no longer necessarily the case.

It's got to the point now where I won't buy anything of significance based on past performance without properly researching it first.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

David Bliss said:

[FONT=&quot]We decided enough was enough and now have a car that's light years ahead, a short test drive was enough to remind us how a car should go, instant throttle response, masses of torque, everything you want in heavy traffic and for hill starts.[/FONT]

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I appreciate that your panda doesn't give you the driving experience you reasonably expected and that you are justifiably peeved about the situation. However, your new Fiesta has almost twice the power and significantly more torque so will be a completely different experience.

As far as i can gather the Fiesta Ecoboost is Euro5 so, slightly tongue in cheek, will Ford make it Euro6 compliant by installing a particulate filter to meet emissions or will they do it through engine mapping and laggy throttle response?

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

What a bloody awful response from Fiat on watchdog!

Can say it surprises me though!

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Like most big companies they won't admit responsibility.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

As far as i can gather the Fiesta Ecoboost is Euro5 so, slightly tongue in cheek, will Ford make it Euro6 compliant by installing a particulate filter to meet emissions or will they do it through engine mapping and laggy throttle response?[/QUOTE]

Its zero road tax so it should be Euro6 compliant. I now realize how basic the 1.2 Panda was for the money, now I shall constantly be held up by gutless new Fiats. You don't have to take my word for it, test a Fiesta Ecoboost out for yourself.

I wouldn't be grumbling like this if Fiat had produced a decent vehicle - I have been driving Fiats since 1987 and all my previous models have been fine. I have been very satisfied with all of my previous ones, but hate this last one. Fiat's attitude to the problem is a disgrace, and I am not the only one suffering from it as has become abundantly clear in the past few months.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Well lets hope the phone goes into meltdown with complaints to them tonight ,they should be helping customers who have picked their vehicle over other manufactures ,and thus comes repeat orders ,the stance on Watchdog was very unprofessional and listening to customers is what its all about !! Come on Fiat do your bit!!

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

David Bliss said:

Its zero road tax so it should be Euro6 compliant.

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Not nessecarily, taxation is done on emissions output per km, not European emissions standard that the engine meets. Hence why a gas guzzling euro6 engine in a 4x4 will still cost £400 a year to tax.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

rkt2003 said:

Well lets hope the phone goes into meltdown with complaints to them tonight ,they should be helping customers who have picked their vehicle over other manufactures ,and thus comes repeat orders ,the stance on Watchdog was very unprofessional and listening to customers is what its all about !! Come on Fiat do your bit!!

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This is exactly it. Half a dozen Toyota owners moan, and Toyota do a mass recall and get slaughtered for it despite doing the right thing, and most owners not having an issue with it. Fiat on the other hand....... Let's try and brush it under the carpet!

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Most Easterly Pandas said:

This is exactly it. Half a dozen Toyota owners moan, and Toyota do a mass recall and get slaughtered for it despite doing the right thing, and most owners not having an issue with it. Fiat on the other hand....... Let's try and brush it under the carpet!

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:yeahthat: Couldn`t agree more

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Dont people test drive cars anymore. Surely if you are spending upwards of 12k on something you should test drive it properly, including up hills before even considering a purchase. It took me and my wife all of 20 mins in a 500 to realize it wasnt for us.

No help for those who have one of these 'new' engines but if you dont test drive a car fully who do really have to blame. Unless Fiat are being really sneaky and sticking an old 1.2 in their test cars. We endid up buying an ecoboost also, the engine is like day and night compared to the fiat, and its a 1.0 L. I hope they sort it out for you all though.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Evening folks,

The Watchdog article got my attention tonight and as daughter has a a 1.2 Fiat thought I'd have a look here...

I've looked at the torque and BHP graphs so usefully supplied, and, it's clearly Euro 6.

The 2014 engine is being 'managed' in it's throttle position, ie, what you do with your foot is not always what happens at the inlet. I would say that the standard engine map is running the engine very lean in order to impress on the emissions front, course, this means it feels very flat and no amount of flooring the pedal will change this. That is until about 3700 rpm, then it seems to run as it should. As most people run in that band, up to 3700 rpm or so, in theory this should mean better emissions and fuel economy, but as you've found, it can feel rough and flat...

In my world, torque production is sometimes dependant on which gear you're in too, ie, less of it in the lower gears and more allowed as the gears go up, anyone noticed it feels better in 3rd, 4th, 5th etc?

Mike

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Personally if I was a 500 owner I'd be getting the ECU tuned by a third party.

Fiat really need to step up their game and do a recall for a software update which any responsible manufacturer would do.

Welcome to any watchdog viewers by the way

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

David Bliss said:

Its zero road tax so it should be Euro6 compliant. I now realize how basic the 1.2 Panda was for the money, now I shall constantly be held up by gutless new Fiats. You don't have to take my word for it, test a Fiesta Ecoboost out for yourself.

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My main driver is an Audi A1 1.4TFSI which has similar "big" engine performance to the Fiesta Ecoboost. I wouldn't dream of comparing its sub 9 second 0-60mph and 200Nm of torque to my 1.2 Fiat 500 as they are completely different animals. This isn't in any way defending Fiat's stance on the 1.2 being "fit for purpose" but just that a 105 TwinAir is maybe a fairer comparison.

As MEP says, tax band and emissions compliance are mutually exclusive. Euro6 brings in petrol particulate limits for the first time and it's interesting news for direct injection engines such as my TFSI and your Ecoboost.

The following is particulates test data for several Euro5 vehicles extracted from a report available at http://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/publications/GDI Briefing_final_T&E.pdf. The upper red line is the Euro6b limits and the bottom red line on the graph is the future Euro6c limits for GDI engines applicable from 2017 onwards. Incidentally, this lower red line is also the current particulate limit for diesel cars. The Ford is a Focus 1.0 Ecoboost, which is admittedly heavier than your Fiesta. It does show, though, that some work needs to be done to meet these requirements.



To comply, manufacturers may choose to fit a filter, similar to a dpf but possibly more reliable or through engine management with potential loss in driveability.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

paul100hp said:

Dont people test drive cars anymore. Surely if you are spending upwards of 12k on something you should test drive it properly, including up hills before even considering a purchase. It took me and my wife all of 20 mins in a 500 to realize it wasnt for us.

No help for those who have one of these 'new' engines but if you dont test drive a car fully who do really have to blame. Unless Fiat are being really sneaky and sticking an old 1.2 in their test cars. We endid up buying an ecoboost also, the engine is like day and night compared to the fiat, and its a 1.0 L. I hope they sort it out for you all though.

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No very helpful for the early euro6 owners who would have been given a euro5 1.2 to extensively test drive

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Cutting emissions and paying zero tax is all well and good, but we have to have cars that are driveable, otherwise we may as well go back to the horse and cart.

Its no point Fiat selling cars and spouting about how great their engines are when in the real world some cant get up a steep incline.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Have just watched the Watchdog prog. this evening and took keen interest as my OH should be collecting her New 1.2 Lounge later next week, however it will be a Dualogic and my understanding is the presenters on the prog. Kept stressing the fault related to the 1.2 Manual version??


Not being technically minded does having a Dualogic makes a difference over Manual on this issue or will the same scenario apply?

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Most Easterly Pandas said:

No very helpful for the early euro6 owners who would have been given a euro5 1.2 to extensively test drive

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Then they didn't buy the car they test drove and should be offered a refund. I wasn't trying to be unhelpful , that was my point. When you test drive a car it should be as close to the car you are buying as possible, maybe some trim differeance, but a different engine, no way. I know how i would feel if i was in their shoes. Fiat has treated these people badly, and should offer a refund or a replacement car with a better engine.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

paul100hp said:

Then they didn't buy the car they test drove and should be offered a refund. I wasn't trying to be unhelpful , that was my point. When you test drive a car it should be as close to the car you are buying as possible, maybe some trim differeance, but a different engine, no way. I know how i would feel if i was in their shoes. Fiat has treated these people badly, and should offer a refund or a replacement car with a better engine.

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It's not a different engine though. The Physically the same, just different ECU mapping. I agree its very bad what Fiat are playing at

chas379 said:

Have just watched the Watchdog prog. this evening and took keen interest as my OH should be collecting her New 1.2 Lounge later next week, however it will be a Dualogic and my understanding is the presenters on the prog. Kept stressing the fault related to the 1.2 Manual version??


Not being technically minded does having a Dualogic makes a difference over Manual on this issue or will the same scenario apply?

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The engine mapping should be the same, so it should in theory have the same engine, but being an auto it'll be impossible to labour the gears al low revs as it'll just change down, so will be interesting to see if the same issue occurs when you collect.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

We were strung along for some time by those lying ***** of customer services, who were telling us that 'We are working on a fix'. Some owners have been told this more recently. When I rang them tonight I was told that there was no fix for my car and, in fact, there was nothing wrong with any of them. They seem to be determined to stick to the 'it's your inadaequate driving skills' line.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Most Easterly Pandas said:

The engine mapping should be the same, so it should in theory have the same engine, but being an auto it'll be impossible to labour the gears al low revs as it'll just change down, so will be interesting to see if the same issue occurs when you collect.

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Will be interesting to see how it performs, watch this space.