re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Mercky said:

hey JR, as the main 'controller general' of this thread, have you considered dropping in to a dealer and taking a recent 1.2 out for a test drive? Pretend your interested in trading up or whatever.

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It's certainly on my 'to do' list.

I'd like to get as much information as I can about what others are reporting, so that I have a really good idea what to look out for.

Certainly I'm very familiar with the nuances of driving the 1.2 in both Euro4 and Euro5 forms, which will help.

Two things currently surprise me regarding this issue; the huge variation in how folks are subjectively reporting this (it varies from not noticing all the way through to rejecting a car because of it), and the almost total lack of objective technical information coming out of Fiat about what's actually been changed on the Euro6.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I'll try the neutral thing in the morning. Not sure about the hill start as I need to find a hill but I'll do it within a couple of days

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

jrkitching said:

It's certainly on my 'to do' list.

I'd like to get as much information as I can about what others are reporting, so that I have a really good idea what to look out for.

Certainly I'm very familiar with the nuances of driving the 1.2 in both Euro4 and Euro5 forms, which will help.

Two things currently surprise me regarding this issue; the huge variation in how folks are subjectively reporting this (it varies from not noticing all the way through to rejecting a car because of it), and the almost total lack of objective technical information coming out of Fiat about what's actually been changed on the Euro6.

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yes i am very curious now. please drive it and let us know!

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

500L said:

Not sure about the hill start as I need to find a hill but I'll do it within a couple of days

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Seems like you live in the Netherlands! No hills, cycling heaven.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

wellfan said:

Seems like you live in the Netherlands! No hills, cycling heaven.

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In Yorkshire and plenty of hills. It's just they're not at the start/end of my journey so I have to find one en-route where I can stop and not block a busy/fast road Don't worry I'll test it There's, thinking about it, a quiet 20% ascent a few hundred metres from my house so I can detour up there when I get home.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Just tried it, the revs stay around 850 depressing and releasing the clutch in neutral.

Do all 500s (or just lounge?) have a cubby hole near the drivers left (RHD car) lower leg? The handle on that is quite uncomfortable. Us men like to sit with our legs apart. The handle needs cutting off or stick some neoprene or something on it.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Ok so I bogged down on first attempt but second, third and fourth attempts all Ok, just had to give it 3 thousand revs.

Don't think it will damage the clutch as you can give it 3 thousand and pull away quite quickly and pull the clutch up quite quickly before the plates get too hot.

No smell in the car, maybe a very slight smell when I got out but might be imagining that (plus you wouldn't normally do 4 steep hill starts in a row..).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mi1n5khqq69jaxd/MOV_0088.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h36jq38uyz0y28f/MOV_0089.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/znapbfe86tz95po/MOV_0090.mp4?dl=0

HTH

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Thanks 500L for taking the time to carry out the test and make the videos.

Do you think this would be comfortable in city conditions? i.e. following slow moving traffic up a hill or climbing ramps in a multi storey car park with cars both close behind and in front of you?
Personally I think having to rev to 3k and dumping the clutch is not acceptable for what is supposed to be a city car. Particularly for inexperienced drivers.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

You aren't getting hills like that in a city unless San Francisco and once it's going it's fine I think. Many cars the handbrake wouldn't hold on the first video as that bit's really steep! Guess at least 20% on first video. The hill is steeper than car park ramps I think. Not dump the clutch so it jolts, it's smooth just do it quick so you don't cook the clutch. I think it's alright, hard for me to say if it's worse than anything else I'd have to take other cars to the same place Don't know what it's like with the engine cold on something like that but you'd never park on anything that steep given the choice. Not sure if it's a big deal or not TBH, didn't seem disastrous anyway.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Allot of testing this morning around Hebden Bridge, Huddersfield etc. On steep traffic lights hill starts. It's not easy at all to get right tbh and requires really careful feet to do nicely like in my vids unless you say I don't give a stuff and just floor it. It can go at walking pace once moving, interesting in slow traffic - leave a gap in front! Because it's OK at walking pace once moving wouldn't that suggest ECU? Don't know what to do now, might be back in 1.3 camp as I do live in a really hilly area.

I don't think you are going to smoke the clutch it's just quite /very difficult to get right especially if you just want to drive casually to work and not concentrate on your feet to get them right within a few mm. Might be better driven with very thin soled shoes!

Btw normal hill starts at lights ok, it's when you get over a critical incline %, very steep around the area I test. Problem with that is, how do you know when you're on a hill that you're above or below the critical amount?

You have to pre load before finding biting point with just the right amount of revs so you aren't abusing it and then release fast as you can but only so fast so it's still smooth. Not very good around this area for driving lessons I think!

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

The 500 got scraped last weekend so gone in for repair(pity it was not written off).Got a Corsa1.2 on loan its a dream to drive compared to the 500.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Volkswagen up or polo any good?

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Palma500s said:

Thanks 500L for taking the time to carry out the test and make the videos.

Do you think this would be comfortable in city conditions? i.e. following slow moving traffic up a hill or climbing ramps in a multi storey car park with cars both close behind and in front of you?
Personally I think having to rev to 3k and dumping the clutch is not acceptable for what is supposed to be a city car. Particularly for inexperienced drivers.

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isnt that the fiat italian way? revving the nuts off a small engine? = )

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

ahmett said:

isnt that the fiat italian way? revving the nuts off a small engine? = )

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Whether or not it is, driving this way goes completely against the whole ethos of the modern small ecocar.

It's six years since the 500 was launched, and Fiat have now got some serious and competent competition, most of which wasn't around at the time.

I'd say they'd do well to look at who's trying to eat their lunch, and take note.

New 1.2 500 Throttle Response

jrkitching said:

Whether or not it is, driving this way goes completely against the whole ethos of the modern small ecocar.

It's six years since the 500 was launched, and Fiat have now got some serious and competent competition, most of which wasn't around at the time.

I'd say they'd do well to look at who's trying to eat their lunch, and take note.

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To be honest with you there is no way right now I would buy a brand new fiat 500. The car is based on 10 year old tech and has barely been updated since 2007 release. The new mini feels like a car easily 10 years ahead of the fiat, maybe even more . I would even go so far as to say the current fiat 500 feels a bit 'vintage' against the competition.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

After having a Hyundai 110 and now a Corsa in recent months as loan cars the 500 is dated not just the throttle issue but I dont rate the suspension or brakes.
I know it may be harsh comparing it to our TT but I just dont think it is up to the job.It is the wifes car and she wants rid so will be looking for another supermini in the spring.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

auditt said:

After having a Hyundai 110 and now a Corsa in recent months as loan cars the 500 is dated not just the throttle issue but I dont rate the suspension or brakes.
I know it may be harsh comparing it to our TT but I just dont think it is up to the job.It is the wifes car and she wants rid so will be looking for another supermini in the spring.

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agree completely. except the brakes, but there again i have the 1.4 with discs all around and front ventilated discs so braking ability is considerably better than the lower models. it was the first thing i noticed when test driving the TA 85, the worse brakes compared to mine!

suspension? yes exactly but i have the billies now so dont mind. There again the short wheelbase does the car no favors, something you simply cannot modify.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

As 500L has confirmed, it is very tricky get it right on a hill start. Personally I could probably just about put up with it but as we live in a hilly area on the edge of the city and the car is for my wife who has only recently passed her test we are going to change it for the 1.3 diesel.
This wouldn't be our first choice but it is really our only viable option as Fiat/dealer would hammer us with a heavy penalty if we sold our car and paid up the finance now. They have however (after a lot of negotiation) offered us a better deal to exchange it for the diesel model.
If I was able to wind the clock back four weeks I would probably go for the Volkswagen Up. You live and learn!

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I also concur with 500L regarding making a hill start. You have to rev the engine to 3k before finding the biting point on the clutch. If you try to do it in the normal way i.e. finding the biting point around 1.5k revs, release the handbrake and then try to increase the revs the engine just bogs down and you go nowhere, or worse, backwards if you don't have hill holder.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Leaning towards complete agreement with those complaining strongest. It just caught me out at a junction but luckily just managed to eventually pick up as I put my right foot through the floor (which you have to retract pretty quick to avoid hitting someone in front of there was someone). You don't notice on normal flat driving. It's unpredictable because you don't know the critical incline gradient when it's going to do it and you don't want to pre rev to 3k at every junction! Imbeciles. Did they test this properly.

By the way I'm in a 2200 miles old 500 now (2200 hard demo miles). Engine much more driveable. Pulls better in higher gears. Problem remains.