Technical How to drive dual logic correctly?

cubic25 · Oct 22, 2013

This may seem like a silly question, but I would like some clarification before I, or my missus, do some damage.
When driving the dual logic, do you:
A) completely lift off the accelerator when it is changing gears?
B) only lift off a little until it has completed the gear change?
C) leave your foot in the same position, leaving pressure on the accelerator?

The smoothest method is B, but I have heard that in other cars, this reduces fluid pressure, thus increasing clutch wear. Is this true for the 500?

I have asked the salesmen at Fiat, and he told me method B is best. Problem is, I don't exactly trust him, as he, and his off-sider, tried convincing me that the 500 has a dual clutch tranny, like the Golf. :bang: It's concerning when the person buying the car knows more than the salesman.

While I'm here, I may as well ask the following, rather than starting a new thread.
Is this box like the horribly unreliable salespeed? Or have they improved it since then?
I have noticed that there is a lack of threads about issues with this box, so that's re-assuring. Or it could also mean that everyone here drives a manual.

Thanks in advance.

ahmett · Oct 22, 2013

cubic25 said:
This may seem like a silly question, but I would like some clarification before I, or my missus, do some damage.
When driving the dual logic, do you:
A) completely lift off the accelerator when it is changing gears?
B) only lift off a little until it has completed the gear change?
C) leave your foot in the same position, leaving pressure on the accelerator?

The smoothest method is B, but I have heard that in other cars, this reduces fluid pressure, thus increasing clutch wear. Is this true for the 500?

I have asked the salesmen at Fiat, and he told me method B is best. Problem is, I don't exactly trust him, as he, and his off-sider, tried convincing me that the 500 has a dual clutch tranny, like the Golf. :bang: It's concerning when the person buying the car knows more than the salesman.

While I'm here, I may as well ask the following, rather than starting a new thread.
Is this box like the horribly unreliable salespeed? Or have they improved it since then?
I have noticed that there is a lack of threads about issues with this box, so that's re-assuring. Or it could also mean that everyone here drives a manual.

Thanks in advance.

I would be considered a hard user of the dualogic box for the Fiat 500. So far its been ok, it has broken once when all the fluid fell out the gearbox when the seal bust but was fixed under warranty for free. Since then I would say it can be moody but for some reason it sorts itself out. I use option B to be honest because in sport mode on full throttle the gearbox feels like its about to break when it changes gears = ).
So far I haven't spent any money on its maintenance after 75,000 km so that's a decent sign. If it breaks out of warranty I will let the forum know for sure!

The main thing I am worried about is that if it does break it will cost a fortune to fix do to the complexity.
To be honest, it seems all automated manual gearboxes are very jerky in town in auto mode and the dualogic box is not any different. I drive it in auto mode when stuck in traffic otherwise I drive it in manual mode with sport button off (too brutal for me with sport button on).

RobinPJ · Oct 22, 2013

Ahmett is the exception that proves the rule. I don't think anyone apart from him has had any problems. But bear in mind that Ahmett complains that he cannot see his ESP light clearly enough from his stock car driving position.

As to your A, B, C choices, I have no idea which is best for the car. I am sure A is unnecessary.

bgunn · Oct 22, 2013

cubic25 said:
This may seem like a silly question, but I would like some clarification before I, or my missus, do some damage.
When driving the dual logic, do you:
A) completely lift off the accelerator when it is changing gears?
B) only lift off a little until it has completed the gear change?
C) leave your foot in the same position, leaving pressure on the accelerator?

The smoothest method is B, but I have heard that in other cars, this reduces fluid pressure, thus increasing clutch wear. Is this true for the 500?

I have asked the salesmen at Fiat, and he told me method B is best. Problem is, I don't exactly trust him, as he, and his off-sider, tried convincing me that the 500 has a dual clutch tranny, like the Golf. :bang: It's concerning when the person buying the car knows more than the salesman.

While I'm here, I may as well ask the following, rather than starting a new thread.
Is this box like the horribly unreliable salespeed? Or have they improved it since then?
I have noticed that there is a lack of threads about issues with this box, so that's re-assuring. Or it could also mean that everyone here drives a manual.

Thanks in advance.

Do whatever feels smoothest.

You don't lose clutch pressure because the clutch is dry and is controlled by the dualogic unit which has its own hydraulic pump (not engine drive). And it's effectively the selespeed unit, but much improved and not generally considered too unreliable.

alexGS · Oct 22, 2013

Dualogic is indeed a variation of Selespeed, refined over many years. The Alfa 156/147 was the first generation and often troublesome. I think of my Stilo as the second generation (similar to the 156GTA/147GTA) where the actuator bears directly on the gear selector forks. Then the Punto Grande and 500 have a smaller system of similar design. The Stilo's system was renamed Dualogic for Brazil.

The Selespeed/Dualogic ECU has complete control over the engine's torque (by controlling fuel, throttle, ignition timing) during the gearchange. You cannot harm anything by what you do with the accelerator, though you will get smoother results if you ask it to change gear when the engine is not under load. Fluid pressure is maintained by an electric pump, nothing to do with the engine speed as perhaps it might have been for conventional automatics. (EDIT: was writing this at the same time as bgunn's message above!)

I always liked the Dualogic in my 500, it was my favourite feature of the car. I always used the paddles on the steering wheel rather than the lever, as the lever was the 'wrong' way around compared to my previous Stilo and my 156.

Of course it might take a little while to get used to it, but I always found it cooperative and easy to drive. I do remember it would ding at me from time to time though, when I tried to change up too early or when I didn't hold my foot on the brake long enough before selecting reverse

When I sold my 500 to a young lady in Auckland, the new buyer had never driven a manual-transmission car before. She had absolutely no idea of when to change gear manually, so had to leave it in Auto mode. Unfortunately, she also treated the accelerator pedal as an on/off switch - so, results were jerky (and not only because of the transmission, but it certainly didn't help her).

Some people will always be better off with a conventional auto, but anyone with a small amount of mechanical sympathy will do well with the Dualogic in manual mode.

Meanwhile I have bought another Stilo Selespeed, now ten years old, and I have clocked up about 25,000km trouble-free km (143,000km total) so I have no qualms about reliability. On the other hand, I have worked on many 156/147 Selespeeds with a whole range of problems, often under 100,000km and under ten years old.

At around 120-150 thousand km, the clutch will need replacing (in the same way as for a manual) and I would expect pump motor brushes to need inspection/replacement at around ten years as well. Mine were fine, it depends on just how many gearchanges have been made, and the system keeps a count of that along with degradation of the clutch. Also I seem to be replacing a number of pressure accumulator spheres in the last year or so (12-year-old 156s). Recommended the replacement of one just this afternoon.

I imagine you won't be keeping your 500 that long, so this is probably a non-issue, but thought you might appreciate the background info. Incidentally, the MultiECUScan software supports the Selespeed CFC328 (Dualogic) so it's perfectly possible to check and maintain it yourself in years to come. The same could never really be said for conventional automatic transmissions... have you ever seen inside a valve body?

-Alex

ahmett · Oct 22, 2013

alexGS said:
Dualogic is indeed a variation of Selespeed, refined over many years. The Alfa 156/147 was the first generation and often troublesome. I think of my Stilo as the second generation (similar to the 156GTA/147GTA) where the actuator bears directly on the gear selector forks. Then the Punto Grande and 500 have a smaller system of similar design. The Stilo's system was renamed Dualogic for Brazil.

The Selespeed/Dualogic ECU has complete control over the engine's torque (by controlling fuel, throttle, ignition timing) during the gearchange. You cannot harm anything by what you do with the accelerator, though you will get smoother results if you ask it to change gear when the engine is not under load. Fluid pressure is maintained by an electric pump, nothing to do with the engine speed as perhaps it might have been for conventional automatics. (EDIT: was writing this at the same time as bgunn's message above!)

I always liked the Dualogic in my 500, it was my favourite feature of the car. I always used the paddles on the steering wheel rather than the lever, as the lever was the 'wrong' way around compared to my previous Stilo and my 156.

Of course it might take a little while to get used to it, but I always found it cooperative and easy to drive. I do remember it would ding at me from time to time though, when I tried to change up too early or when I didn't hold my foot on the brake long enough before selecting reverse

When I sold my 500 to a young lady in Auckland, the new buyer had never driven a manual-transmission car before. She had absolutely no idea of when to change gear manually, so had to leave it in Auto mode. Unfortunately, she also treated the accelerator pedal as an on/off switch - so, results were jerky (and not only because of the transmission, but it certainly didn't help her).

Some people will always be better off with a conventional auto, but anyone with a small amount of mechanical sympathy will do well with the Dualogic in manual mode.

Meanwhile I have bought another Stilo Selespeed, now ten years old, and I have clocked up about 25,000km trouble-free km (143,000km total) so I have no qualms about reliability. On the other hand, I have worked on many 156/147 Selespeeds with a whole range of problems, often under 100,000km and under ten years old.

At around 120-150 thousand km, the clutch will need replacing (in the same way as for a manual) and I would expect pump motor brushes to need inspection/replacement at around ten years as well. Mine were fine, it depends on just how many gearchanges have been made, and the system keeps a count of that along with degradation of the clutch. Also I seem to be replacing a number of pressure accumulator spheres in the last year or so (12-year-old 156s). Recommended the replacement of one just this afternoon.

I imagine you won't be keeping your 500 that long, so this is probably a non-issue, but thought you might appreciate the background info. Incidentally, the MultiECUScan software supports the Selespeed CFC328 (Dualogic) so it's perfectly possible to check and maintain it yourself in years to come. The same could never really be said for conventional automatic transmissions... have you ever seen inside a valve body?

-Alex

Thanks for the insight to the Dualogic Alex if you were in Greece i'd definitely be stopping by you for dualogic services instead of speaking with my rip off dealer. My clutch is feeling less than perfect at 75,000 km but I think it will last for another year or 2 before I change it. Reversing backwards up a hill to park is not so kind on it I guess!
Will ask Bosch service if they have the tools to do a reset or check the clutch wear rating.

Do you recommend changing the oil every so often?

pmay58 · Oct 22, 2013

Had mine with Paddles for a month now and cannot believe how smooth its is. I would say I just drive it as a normal auto and when it changes down seems so smooth you hardly notice it.
For me the most annoying thing is the warnings you get when you start up and I am never sure where to leave the gear stick when I turn the ignition off.
Any help would be greatly received.

RobinPJ · Oct 22, 2013

Leave it in drive when you stop.

When you start up, move the gear lever up or down to select 1st.

alexGS · Oct 22, 2013

RobinPJ said:
Leave it in drive when you stop.

When you start up, move the gear lever up or down to select 1st.

:yeahthat:
To be more precise (there is no "drive" position), leave it in the centre, in other words, don't touch it at all when you park, just switch the engine off. That way, you're parked in gear, which is safest.

To start the engine, press the brake pedal, and after the engine starts, move the lever down (+) to select 1st, then release the brake.

The 'N' position of the lever is not really necessary and I don't know why FIAT decided to include it. It means that if you start the engine, leave the lever in the centre, and release the brake pedal, it dings to let you know that the lever position doesn't correspond to the selected gear (N). It also dings if you switch off with the lever in N, or if it's put itself into N after opening the driver's door with engine running. The dinging is to alert you that you haven't parked in gear, so the car might roll away if the brakes are released.

-Alex

RobinPJ · Oct 22, 2013

I guess you need neutral if you want to get out with the engine running, or similar.

alexGS · Oct 22, 2013

ahmett said:
Thanks for the insight to the Dualogic Alex if you were in Greece i'd definitely be stopping by you for dualogic services instead of speaking with my rip off dealer. My clutch is feeling less than perfect at 75,000 km but I think it will last for another year or 2 before I change it. Reversing backwards up a hill to park is not so kind on it I guess!
Will ask Bosch service if they have the tools to do a reset or check the clutch wear rating.

Do you recommend changing the oil every so often?

Yes, I would change the gearbox oil (in the mechanical part of the gearbox) about every 3 to 5 years. The Selespeed fluid should probably not be touched as it's intended to be a sealed system on the 500 - it should not need topping up (as you have learned already).

-Alex

ahmett · Oct 22, 2013

alexGS said:
Yes, I would change the gearbox oil (in the mechanical part of the gearbox) about every 3 to 5 years. The Selespeed fluid should probably not be touched as it's intended to be a sealed system on the 500 - it should not need topping up (as you have learned already).

-Alex

Haha thanks for that.
Gearbox is working ok right now after 3 years and 78000 km, only issues are sometimes it inconsistently refuses to go from 2nd to 1st when the car is stationary or it jerks around, and also sometimes makes a weird 'clack' noise when going into 3rd gear.
Other than that is fine.

alexGS · Oct 22, 2013

RobinPJ said:
I guess you need neutral if you want to get out with the engine running, or similar.

Indeed - after opening the driver's door, with the lever in the centre, it selects N automatically and then dings because the lever isn't in the N position.

So it's a case of having to move the lever into that N position just to keep in line with what the system does by itself - kind of annoying if you're used to the earlier systems.

The R position is also a stable position on the 500, unlike the earlier systems which were spring-loaded. I can only assume that's because people like the feeling of actually having the lever go into reverse and stay there

To move forward again, it's sufficient to simply return the lever to the centre - no need to pull down (+) - all quite confusing at first but becomes second-nature after a while. It is much faster at going from R to 1 than the earlier systems, meaning less frustration for three-point turns. Also, there are usually no loud clacks and clonks from the gearbox, just a pleasant 'snick'.

The silliest change was how FIAT swapped the position of + and - (i.e. pull lever down/back to change up, it was forward in the earlier systems), which meant for the first week or two in my 500, I was headbutting the steering wheel with the accidental change from 2nd back to 1st instead of to 3rd. :bang: That's why I used the paddles, as they were still the same way around (right to change up). A more welcome change was that the right paddle can be used to select 1st to move off. That's handy when you have a new 55" TV between the seats and can't move the lever.

-Alex

alexGS · Oct 22, 2013

pmay58 said:
Had mine with Paddles for a month now and cannot believe how smooth its is. I would say I just drive it as a normal auto and when it changes down seems so smooth you hardly notice it.

I know what you mean

if you've ever bungled a manual gearchange (and who hasn't!), then you appreciate how consistently smooth the Dualogic is, and how nice it is not to accidentally stall when traffic lights go green

I still reckon it best suits those who can drive a manual smoothly though - as I mentioned, automatic-only drivers seem to get on poorly with it. When you come to sell the car, it tends to be more of a training course than a test drive...

-Alex

pmay58 · Oct 22, 2013

Think I have got it

Turn off engine in drive
Start in "gear" and then shift to N to stop warning buzzer.

What I have started to do is turn off in gear, handbrake on and then N so guess its almost the same thing.

chas379 · Oct 22, 2013

I have had a Dualogic TA and my OH has had 2 x 1.2 Dualogics. We are not technical people we just drive the car and accept what it does. On all 3 vehicles we have not had a problem with the Dualogic, we drive/drove it as we needed, the accelerator determining how it performed and as a result no issues or adverse comments.

I think sometimes we have the notion to drill down too far into the technical parameters of things and loose out on what we really want, or feel.

Drive it and if it feels OK to you accept it

PS I think I may take a course on philosophy???:devil:

alexGS · Oct 23, 2013

pmay58 said:
Think I have got it

Turn off engine in drive
Start in "gear" and then shift to N to stop warning buzzer.

What I have started to do is turn off in gear, handbrake on and then N so guess its almost the same thing.

There is no "drive".

1. Turn off engine with lever left in centre.
2. Start engine with foot on brake.
3. With foot still on brake, move lever to + (down)
4. Foot off brake

Don't bother to select N...

-Alex

44sunsets · Oct 23, 2013

cubic25 said:
This may seem like a silly question, but I would like some clarification before I, or my missus, do some damage.
When driving the dual logic, do you:
A) completely lift off the accelerator when it is changing gears?
B) only lift off a little until it has completed the gear change?
C) leave your foot in the same position, leaving pressure on the accelerator?

My experience is that B makes the gear changes a bit smoother, but I do C most of the time. I just leave it in full auto mode, Dualogic works perfectly fine for me. Occasionally I'll use engine braking and will change down using the paddles or the gear select lever for fun.

My only real Dualogic complaint is that the gear change from 1st to 2nd can be quite abrupt sometimes, so that's when easing off on the accelerator helps.

Another little quirk I noticed is that sometimes when I quickly go into reverse (e.g. when reverse parking the car), it will ding and go into neutral instead. I've since learned to pause for a beat before selecting R and then it will work without any problems.

The Dualogic is quirky and that's how I like my cars

cubic25 said:
Or it could also mean that everyone here drives a manual.

Most forum people here are in the UK so I'd say 60-70% drive manuals.

ahmett · Oct 23, 2013

44sunsets said:
My experience is that B makes the gear changes a bit smoother, but I do C most of the time. I just leave it in full auto mode, Dualogic works perfectly fine for me. Occasionally I'll use engine braking and will change down using the paddles or the gear select lever for fun.

My only real Dualogic complaint is that the gear change from 1st to 2nd can be quite abrupt sometimes, so that's when easing off on the accelerator helps.

Another little quirk I noticed is that sometimes when I quickly go into reverse (e.g. when reverse parking the car), it will ding and go into neutral instead. I've since learned to pause for a beat before selecting R and then it will work without any problems.

The Dualogic is quirky and that's how I like my cars

Most forum people here are in the UK so I'd say 60-70% drive manuals.

Yes if you are hard on the throttle when you change from 1st to 2nd it feels like the gearbox will dethatch from the car = ) Oh and sometimes my dualogic goes from R into 2nd skipping first! Weird! It really is moody but generally works ok = )

Most Easterly Pandas · Oct 23, 2013

alexGS said:
Dualogic is indeed a variation of Selespeed, refined over many years.

Well not really, its just a Selespeed unit with a different name. Only purpose was to get rid of the Selespeed stigma.

Interestingly though was only ever really called selespeed on the Stilo within the Fiat group of cars, on everything else from the mk3 Panda onwards its been Dualogic.

alexGS said:
:yeahthat:
To be more precise (there is no "drive" position), leave it in the centre, in other words, don't touch it at all when you park, just switch the engine off. That way, you're parked in gear, which is safest.

:yeahthat:

Can also be left in Reverse if thats the gear you stop in

RobinPJ said:
I guess you need neutral if you want to get out with the engine running, or similar.

Correct, although as Alex has said it will select neutral if the drivers door is opened (a pain when reversing and poking your head out of the door), but best to place in neutral manually if you're getting out of the car.

pmay58 said:
Think I have got it

Turn off engine in drive
Start in "gear" and then shift to N to stop warning buzzer.

What I have started to do is turn off in gear, handbrake on and then N so guess its almost the same thing.

No, switch of with the gearbox in 1st or Reverse, and as soon as you've switched the car off place the selector into Neutral. This way the car will park in gear, but selector will be in Neutral ready for restart, and prevent beeping due to transmission position and gear selector position being out of sync

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