Hi all,

I have been visiting the forum for quite some time as i am about to order my 500. I have decided everything.. color, extras, trim level.. everything.. and i was sooo close to place the order for a 1.4 sport 500 as i felt it's more of a "complete" car compared to the 1.2
However, as the fuel price goes up (and everything shows that it will keep getting higher) and as i read that FIAT is close to present its new 900cc (105bhp) petrol engine in Uk some time in July i posponed the order until late summer in case there are any news about it.. This engine sounds as a good combination between fuel efficiency and power in my opinion.

Yet, i have some questions... how do you think a 900cc turbo charged engine will perform? 2 stroke engines were known for their noisy an unstable run..
If i am not wrong, VAG uses for its TFSi technology similar solutions and there are many people (at least here in Greece where i am located) problems regarding their motors..

I wonder if the wait worths.. but as rumours say that this 900cc unit will replace both 1.4 and 1.2 (only Abarth will be 1.4) engines i guess it has to be a good one

Any opinions?

Thanks

It's a 2 cyl, not a 2 stroke.

Οoopss.. you're right.. my mistake..

Just found out that this engine is most likely to be presented at the Goodwood Festival of Speed.

The advantage of the 1368 is that it is a proven engine deriving from a family of engines now for about 22 years in production and millions built.

The 900cc engine is new, which might be as good as it might be bad.

The fact that it is a 2 cylinder engine wouldn't bother me as they can be running very smooth and sound amazing when Italians are permitted to tune the music.

What would bother me is that it is the first load of turbos and that they are testing the new solenoid control valve gear. In theory it is a very good thing. And it opens new avenues, but whether it works that well in practise is another question. In the future it will work. I personally would wait till the new technology has proven itself, especially when you are dependent on the car.

How cool would it be to make it a 2 stroke though, so much more power and what a power band Like any new engine, I would wait at least a year for any big issues to be ironed out before buying one yourself.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts..

Exactly the fact that this new 900cc turbo is NOT a proven tech is my main concern.. Om the other hand, FIAT seems to be rather confident as it is said that this engine will replace the 1.4 and 1.2 ... therefore, i guess if there was any reliability concerns they would not do this replacement.
Hope that quite soon there will be at least some reviews. In case though that i wait and finally order the 900cc i would so definitely get the guarantee extention they offer (+500 euros) from 2 to 5 years.. I am sure i will get this money back from the fuel saving

buy the 1368 16v while you can, it is an epic engine and sounds amazing

2 cylinder engines are interesting but it will remain to be seen if it is any good

do you really want to wait another 6 to 9 months for your 500?

Twin cylinder engines are well understood, particularly by Fiat. The new valve technology is supposedly brilliant, simple and likely to be very reliable - according to the information I have seen.

So much will depend on this engine and the associated technology that Fiat dare not get it wrong. Fortunately engines have always been their strong suit.

I understand that Fiat will hold on to the patents of the new technology and not allow production by competitors for four years. Good. They were forced by financial constraints to license Common Rail Diesel technology to competitors from the off and the new engine will give them real economy, performance and emissions advantages.

If I read this correctly it means the new Ka will not in fact have the new twins when they arrive next year. It had been rumoured that they might.


The 1.4 is a very good and well proven engine. If you get your new car now and keep it for three years you will able to buy the twin when it has really proved itself, and anyway the new engine will get a great deal of publicity which will rub off on all 500s, in a good way.

RobW, i have test-driven both 1.4 and 1.2 and i agree that 1.4 is a very good engine (not that 1.2 is bad of course.. ). The only disadvantage is that the engine is not that lively (<- sorry do not know is this term exists) in the low rpms.. i currently drive a VW Lupo 1.4 and i really love it's acceleration in the low rpms (ok.. over 3.500 there is nothing else to give you the engine). 1.2 could be a good option for urban use but as the car may be used for some trips i would rather go for the 1.4...

I hope that the 900cc will combine the benefits of both motors and i think i can wait 1-2 months in case i hear any news. Besides the waiting time here is 6-8 months so if i wait a bit more it's not such a big deal...

Ulpian, yes, it can be a solution to get the 1.4 and few years later to get the new one but don't you think that the 1.4 and 1.2 will depreciate if they are replaced by the 900cc?

Ulpian, yes, it can be a solution to get the 1.4 and few years later to get the new one but don't you think that the 1.4 and 1.2 will depreciate if they are replaced by the 900cc?

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Yes, I do. And I would think the 1.4 would depreciate more since it uses the most fuel.

I have no idea when the new engine will be launched. I'd have thought sometime next year because the car is so new it might upset the first buyers if their pride and joy was suddenly superseded. However, it would probably be in Fiat's best interests to get the new engines out as quickly as safely possible, and sell them on their economy - given the price of fuel This would give them a real marketing advantage.

If I was in your position and could wait - I'd wait. One day soon the press will release details of Fiat's forthcoming revolutionary engine, and then we'll know - possibly

Ulpian, i agree 100% with every single piece of your post.

It's true that FIAT would really disappoint all those early buyers of the 1.4 and 1.2 500s if it would launch so early the new motor so i guess it will not be before 2009. On the other hand, as Toyota and VW are preparing their eco-minis and as FIAT appears to have the technology, i do not think they will wait until late 2009... besides it is very likely that oil will hit $200 a barrel, until the end of 2008 and therefore the market ALREADY exists

I think it would be wise to wait (as i do have a car to do my job). Once i do not change my cars that often (i already have my Lupo for 8 years) so supposing i want to sell a FIAT 500 1.4 in, say, 3-4 years i think i will have a big prob as by 2011-2012 the streets will be full of all these tiny hybrid vehicles that car companies develop.

My only concern was if this 900cc will be running smoothly

unless all car makers adopt the twin cyl engine then fiat have already got a dead donky to try and flog take a look at the brabus smart cars they are a 999cc 3 cyl turbo with 98bhp yes they get good economy but at the cost of performance 95 mph, 0-60 9.9 plus the smart is a lot lighter than the 500 will ever be! unless they do over 70mpg (which even the smart won't do) or cost around £5000 its pretty pointless people will just go elsewhere for there cars if the current 500's where 900cc twins i would have not even looked at buying one

white 500, i guess (got no facts though) that the 900cc-105bhp will have similar performance with the 1.4 but significantly less fuel consumption. As for the price, again i presume it will be similar to the existing 1.4/1.2.. But i am clueless so time will tell FIATs' plans and strategy.

The thing is that,at least in this category, this period of time is a transitional one and thus it is difficult to know how the cars and the market will evolve.

one more question as i do not have the necessary technical knowledge or experience.
i have heared that motors with turbo (like the TFSI technology of VAG) somehow can only work properly by using 100 octane fuel. Some people say that in the long term, the use of 95 octane fuel may even damage this kind of engines..

do you have any idea if that's true and if this new 900cc engine may require 100 octane fuel?

thnx

There are two points in question here. First, the electronic valve actuation, which is due to be applied to all Fiat engines as soon as technically possible. It offers significantly better economy, emissions and even performance.

The twin engine is another matter. By comparison with a small four it will be something like a quarter lighter, smaller, and more packageable ( rear engines anyone?). The light weight will offer more nimble handling and improved tyre wear, and the small size might offer a better steering lock too. Win-win in fact. As for the driveability, well, this will be interesting; it will have sophisticated balance engineering and will certainly offer a different driving experience, but not necessarily worse. The Citroen flat twin in the 2CV was a brilliant engine, although the boxer configuration offers a natural balance to some degree. Motorcycles have well balanced twins of various layouts and there is no inherent reason not to employ them. Indeed, they offer less mechanical power loss since there are fewer moving parts. The Fiat twin will be smooth, but differently smooth I reckon It will be offered in both N/A and turbo versions, with about 65 and 80-100 bhp respectively. We have to wait for the details

This new technology, both the twin and the valve actuation, is the most interesting development going on right now and, as you say ale, other makers are going to bring small engines to market soon as well. The three pot used by Daihatsu etc. is a great little motor too, economical, and has a lovely thrummy beat. No, the twin should be fun.

PS. Fiat will design it to run on anything, depending on market.

wow, that was a very interesting analysis. Thanks for sharing all this information. In fact, after reading your posts my curiosity for this engine becomes even bigger.
If it has all the charcteristincs you mention then i believe that it will really be an excelent unit that can make 500 a car you do not buy it only for its looks but also the technology it carries.
Well, in a month time i guess we will know more!

I hope so.
Fiat has to be very careful here because if it becomes popularly known that new, more economical engines are on the way buyers will wait. I believe this is the reason we have heard nothing since the Frankfurt show last year. Prototypes of the engines have been running in vans in Italy for some years now to get the durability assured.

Some reports say the new Alfa Mito will have the Multiair head technology first, applied to the current 1.4. Soon!

It will be a fascinating summer in the car world.

Ulpian said:

I hope so.
Fiat has to be very careful here because if it becomes popularly known that new, more economical engines are on the way buyers will wait

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Definitely, and none can blame them for this. Especially when 500 is still selling like a hot cake then why to rush and introduce new versions?
When i aksed dealers if they know something about it the appeared to be clueless and was advised "not to believe everything i read online"

oh! still is not clear to me though if they will incorporate the start/stop tech. with this engine or if they will fit it to the hybrid version to be launched mid-late 2009...

hmmm.. so, 900cc or hybrid 900cc?? arrgghh... i bet soon after they will introduce an even smaller engine just to puzzle us

I read that the engineers want to incorporate the start-stop from the launch. It is being designed with this in mind.

The marketing people may be cautious though because if there are problems the publicity will do harm. Fiat is less resilient to a bad press than many manufacturers because the public likes to think it is smart to diss the products, even though they have traditionally been of above average reliability. VW good - Fiat bad for instance. New Fiat is all about attractive products with solid reliability, the clever engineering will have to be snuck in under the fence.

See how many old Pandas and Puntos there are about, not to mention Bravos etc.. And a friend of mine still has the old 500 his father bought in the 60s, and it still goes shopping.

Forget hybrids.