Need words of wisdom..
got a complex VW to work through
Experiences please
got a complex VW to work through
Experiences please
VCDS..vw diagnostics..tell me more
- Thread starter varesecrazy
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VCDS..vw diagnostics..tell me more
VCDS appears to be very good, but expensive if for only occasional use. @Pugglt Auld Jock is experienced with this, but of course not local to you.
For only occasional use, I got OBDeleven (https://obdeleven.com/en/). A Bluetooth OBD plug, and an Android app to read it. If your VW is Didcot, or thereabouts, you're welcome to borrow stuff. I've not used it much, but am willing to learn as we go. Needs to be within wi-fi range of a router for best results, so that codes can be researched.
For only occasional use, I got OBDeleven (https://obdeleven.com/en/). A Bluetooth OBD plug, and an Android app to read it. If your VW is Didcot, or thereabouts, you're welcome to borrow stuff. I've not used it much, but am willing to learn as we go. Needs to be within wi-fi range of a router for best results, so that codes can be researched.
Thanks Nigel
A brief history:
its a cared for car.. a cosseted low mile model (flew to Germany to see it built)
Its a rare spec of good options.. a good used buy
After significant additional miles it wouldnt hold coolant.. ( common age related block failure apparently) so a 40k same year engine was fitted by a local garage
Thry didnt release it for 10 days as it had niggles...
Collected.. drove great for @100 miles.. then ran sick
Garage then tried to 'fix' the error now showing.. they fried the ECU
VAG indy specialist had the car for WEEKS.. found motor badly timed.. BUT a Crank vs Cam timing errors persists
So.. stupid amount of money already spent..VAG techs are stumped.. dealers wont attempt anything as their 'fixes are New ECU and wiring.. but dont recognise the engine fitted'
VCDS might give enough feedback to figure out if either timing feedback is faulty/incomplete
Current USED ecu is the only one that lets the engine run.. 4 have been killed by 'Ecu experts'
A stock VW ecu from a breaker will 'crank.fire.kill' reliably..
Obviously the immobiliser cuts in.. but most online 'experts' kill the ECU while attempting to clear it
One just clicks as soon as given 12volts
Others just crank..not run ( immobiliser is NOT active)
So.. will VCDS tell us what is killing the motor
( why havent garages with 'KIT' been able to get beyond ' its timed wrong')
£225 for the software would be ok.. but we dont have a laptop to use for this job
Already around £4k spent on various fixes. not impressed by 'the experts' thus far
A brief history:
its a cared for car.. a cosseted low mile model (flew to Germany to see it built)
Its a rare spec of good options.. a good used buy
After significant additional miles it wouldnt hold coolant.. ( common age related block failure apparently) so a 40k same year engine was fitted by a local garage
Thry didnt release it for 10 days as it had niggles...
Collected.. drove great for @100 miles.. then ran sick
Garage then tried to 'fix' the error now showing.. they fried the ECU
VAG indy specialist had the car for WEEKS.. found motor badly timed.. BUT a Crank vs Cam timing errors persists
So.. stupid amount of money already spent..VAG techs are stumped.. dealers wont attempt anything as their 'fixes are New ECU and wiring.. but dont recognise the engine fitted'
VCDS might give enough feedback to figure out if either timing feedback is faulty/incomplete
Current USED ecu is the only one that lets the engine run.. 4 have been killed by 'Ecu experts'
A stock VW ecu from a breaker will 'crank.fire.kill' reliably..
Obviously the immobiliser cuts in.. but most online 'experts' kill the ECU while attempting to clear it
One just clicks as soon as given 12volts
Others just crank..not run ( immobiliser is NOT active)
So.. will VCDS tell us what is killing the motor
( why havent garages with 'KIT' been able to get beyond ' its timed wrong')
£225 for the software would be ok.. but we dont have a laptop to use for this job
Already around £4k spent on various fixes. not impressed by 'the experts' thus far
With so many people having hands on, it will be difficult to know what has happened, and what state it is in now.
Some thoughts.
Replacement engine, whilst from similar age car, is not identical.
Replacement engine possibly came with sensors, which may not be compatible with original ECU.
ECU failure is rare, and if being caused by something external to the ECU, needs to be fixed before another ECU is used.
If wrong sensors are wired differently, may be causing wrong voltages to feed back into the ECU, or some shorts to earth, or just a bad sensor causing this.
If one ECU works, why? Is it from a different vehicle, and compatible with the 'wrong' engine.
VAG techs not recognising the engine is significant. If incorrect, I'd have hoped they could have said what it came from. Engine is just a mechanical lump, will run if air and fuel supplied in correct ratios. ECU only gets upset if sensors inputs are incorrect.
Doubtful VCDS or OBDeleven will find meaningful codes, if sensors and ECU don't match.
Need to go back to the start. What is the replacement engine. Then sensors wiring might be obtainable, and comparisons made.
What is it? Where is it?
Some thoughts.
Replacement engine, whilst from similar age car, is not identical.
Replacement engine possibly came with sensors, which may not be compatible with original ECU.
ECU failure is rare, and if being caused by something external to the ECU, needs to be fixed before another ECU is used.
If wrong sensors are wired differently, may be causing wrong voltages to feed back into the ECU, or some shorts to earth, or just a bad sensor causing this.
If one ECU works, why? Is it from a different vehicle, and compatible with the 'wrong' engine.
VAG techs not recognising the engine is significant. If incorrect, I'd have hoped they could have said what it came from. Engine is just a mechanical lump, will run if air and fuel supplied in correct ratios. ECU only gets upset if sensors inputs are incorrect.
Doubtful VCDS or OBDeleven will find meaningful codes, if sensors and ECU don't match.
Need to go back to the start. What is the replacement engine. Then sensors wiring might be obtainable, and comparisons made.
What is it? Where is it?
Pretty much my thoughts there..
Its a Golf GTD.. the high output CUNA motor
Sensors have been swapped:
Round 1 original engine
R2 ebay decent brand
R3 genuine VW Bosch
No difference
It ran perfectly for 100 miles.. no errors
Then halfway through day 2 journey it ran sick and pinged timing error.. assumption was something had shifted..
That has been investigated over @20 paid workshop hours.. 2 garages
Apparently a common issue is a plastic timing part gets damaged.. it was.. no change
There is even a need to remove gearbox on these ( extra timing input)
3 teeth out.. corrected.. no change
System is overly complex.. we need to see timing signal input from ECU perspective.. and look for changes
Only working ECU wont start motor when 'warm'..so another route of investigation
An expensive lesson here :-(
Its a Golf GTD.. the high output CUNA motor
Sensors have been swapped:
Round 1 original engine
R2 ebay decent brand
R3 genuine VW Bosch
No difference
It ran perfectly for 100 miles.. no errors
Then halfway through day 2 journey it ran sick and pinged timing error.. assumption was something had shifted..
That has been investigated over @20 paid workshop hours.. 2 garages
Apparently a common issue is a plastic timing part gets damaged.. it was.. no change
There is even a need to remove gearbox on these ( extra timing input)
3 teeth out.. corrected.. no change
System is overly complex.. we need to see timing signal input from ECU perspective.. and look for changes
Only working ECU wont start motor when 'warm'..so another route of investigation
An expensive lesson here :-(
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A diesel. A VAG diesel. There are a lot of different flavours of these, all almost identical, but tuned differently for different applications (car, van, different power outputs and deliveries), the engine type is critical.
However, if the incorrect one had been fitted, I would expect it to run, and if poorly, that should be consistent.
The damaged timing component may be significant. Since replacement, has it been revisited, or just now assumed good? My thoughts there are, 'why' did it break? Age is assumed, but may have itself been a victim, and is now distressed again.
We should not assume the replacement engine is good, it may have its own problems, possibly why the donor car was scrapped, or may have been sitting unused for some time. Cars nearing scrappage are often not cared for, lack of oil changes can cause internal damage. I wonder if timing components are tight when warm? Is the oil getting everywhere it should?
You say CUNA motor. Is this on the car's label, and the original engine, and the replacement, or are assumptions being made here too? Every possible variable needs to be clarified to avoid chasing shadows.
As we're talking electronics, I'm assuming this is an electronically controlled, direct injection unit, so the high pressure pump is just that, not an injection pump. If it has an injection pump (mechanical injection), that needs to be timed very accurately, and can cause grief it it tries to seize.
If I'm paying attention.
Original motor was runing ok, apart from coolant leak that killed it.
Replacement engine, has been trouble from the beginning. So its mechanical condition needs to be checked carefully.
Without an ignition system, there should be no potential high voltage spikes to destroy an ECU, so ECU failure suggests voltages directed incorrectly, (different wiring circuits), or short to earth, or high resistances in a component causing high voltages. Have the resistances of the injectors been checked?
However, if the incorrect one had been fitted, I would expect it to run, and if poorly, that should be consistent.
The damaged timing component may be significant. Since replacement, has it been revisited, or just now assumed good? My thoughts there are, 'why' did it break? Age is assumed, but may have itself been a victim, and is now distressed again.
We should not assume the replacement engine is good, it may have its own problems, possibly why the donor car was scrapped, or may have been sitting unused for some time. Cars nearing scrappage are often not cared for, lack of oil changes can cause internal damage. I wonder if timing components are tight when warm? Is the oil getting everywhere it should?
You say CUNA motor. Is this on the car's label, and the original engine, and the replacement, or are assumptions being made here too? Every possible variable needs to be clarified to avoid chasing shadows.
As we're talking electronics, I'm assuming this is an electronically controlled, direct injection unit, so the high pressure pump is just that, not an injection pump. If it has an injection pump (mechanical injection), that needs to be timed very accurately, and can cause grief it it tries to seize.
If I'm paying attention.
Original motor was runing ok, apart from coolant leak that killed it.
Replacement engine, has been trouble from the beginning. So its mechanical condition needs to be checked carefully.
Without an ignition system, there should be no potential high voltage spikes to destroy an ECU, so ECU failure suggests voltages directed incorrectly, (different wiring circuits), or short to earth, or high resistances in a component causing high voltages. Have the resistances of the injectors been checked?
I completely agree..
We need to see what the Mansgement THINKS is going on..
As a first move.. so need VCDS or similar
We need to see what the Mansgement THINKS is going on..
As a first move.. so need VCDS or similar
Hi folks and sorry for not having joined into this thread sooner but I'm not at home just now and have been neglecting the forum in favour of recreational family activities.
With the history you tell us of your relationship with the car I can easily understand why you want to persevere with it - been there and caught that "bug".
PB very kindly says I'm "experienced" with VAG-COM (or VCDS as it's now called) however this experience is quite narrow and vehicle specific in scope. I did use it extensively on my old 1999 1.9 tdi VE (pre PD) engined Cordoba - which I owned for nearly 20 years - and my boy's early 1.9 tdi PD engined Fabia. He traded that Fabia for a 1.6 CR engined Fabia Scout which was an engine I didn't like at all and was a bit of an unreliable vehicle compared to the VE and PD engines which just ran and ran. Luckily for me the son of a family friend, and Audi Master Tech - the son that is - set up his own independent garage workshop shortly after my boy bought the Scout so when it blocked up it's EGR - a bit of a swine to access - and fell victim to the diesel scandal so needing to be reprogrammed, I just handed it over to him, lucky me.
I don't know the engine code - CUNA - but I suspect it's one of the 2 litre PDs? If so the 1.9tdi PDs were a well respected unit which proved very reliable - although there is a well known injector loom problem on them (where the loom runs inside the head) but easy enough to sort if you know about it, whereas the 2 litre PDs (which I've never gone anywhere near) I believe had quite a "bumpy" early life with serious oil pump drive shearing problems and fuel injector failures. As PB seems to be suggesting, my starting point would be to be quite sure that the physical engine is actually what it should be (used engines with no supporting provenance are always a bit of a lottery?) Then, being sure the engine really is what it purports to be, are the ECU numbers correct for that application. Given both these basics are correct then, as you say, you need to know what the control unit/s think the sensors are telling it/them and go on from there. If it's a CR then I'm really out of my depth.
So Charlie, I doubt if I can be very useful to you on this one. I can however strongly recommend VCDS which is a much more powerful tool in relation to what it can enable you to do with VAG vehicles compared to what MES lets you do with FIATs. It's very different to use though but there are many tutorials on you tube which you could explore. I bought my copy from Derek at Ilexa: https://www.ilexa.co.uk/ and have received continuing support even now many years down the line from when I bought it. He's even sent me new program discs when I changed from Vista to Win 10 and found I couldn't use the original discs to get it up and running with Win 10 all free of charge. He himself is actually working on cars and will answer his phone - returning a call on the same day usually - to give advice on problems. Then there's Gendan who also sell the gear and the excellent backup we know can be relied upon from their Grant. I think Derek is the more "hands on" technically knowledgeable of the two.
Sorry if I've not helped much? Please do ask away if you've any more specific queries you'd like to throw at me but I don't make any promises I'll be able to help. On the other hand, two heads and all that? Just one parting thought, and I'm sorry if it's a bit "defeatist". You've had a number of "professionals" working on this including a VAG indy specialist, to say nothing of the money spent, and little or no progress is being made. Are you maybe being a little "optimistic" to think that you're going to sort this mess out when they couldn't? Sorry, just a thought.
Good luck with this and please do keep us informed
Kindest regards
Jock
With the history you tell us of your relationship with the car I can easily understand why you want to persevere with it - been there and caught that "bug".
PB very kindly says I'm "experienced" with VAG-COM (or VCDS as it's now called) however this experience is quite narrow and vehicle specific in scope. I did use it extensively on my old 1999 1.9 tdi VE (pre PD) engined Cordoba - which I owned for nearly 20 years - and my boy's early 1.9 tdi PD engined Fabia. He traded that Fabia for a 1.6 CR engined Fabia Scout which was an engine I didn't like at all and was a bit of an unreliable vehicle compared to the VE and PD engines which just ran and ran. Luckily for me the son of a family friend, and Audi Master Tech - the son that is - set up his own independent garage workshop shortly after my boy bought the Scout so when it blocked up it's EGR - a bit of a swine to access - and fell victim to the diesel scandal so needing to be reprogrammed, I just handed it over to him, lucky me.
I don't know the engine code - CUNA - but I suspect it's one of the 2 litre PDs? If so the 1.9tdi PDs were a well respected unit which proved very reliable - although there is a well known injector loom problem on them (where the loom runs inside the head) but easy enough to sort if you know about it, whereas the 2 litre PDs (which I've never gone anywhere near) I believe had quite a "bumpy" early life with serious oil pump drive shearing problems and fuel injector failures. As PB seems to be suggesting, my starting point would be to be quite sure that the physical engine is actually what it should be (used engines with no supporting provenance are always a bit of a lottery?) Then, being sure the engine really is what it purports to be, are the ECU numbers correct for that application. Given both these basics are correct then, as you say, you need to know what the control unit/s think the sensors are telling it/them and go on from there. If it's a CR then I'm really out of my depth.
So Charlie, I doubt if I can be very useful to you on this one. I can however strongly recommend VCDS which is a much more powerful tool in relation to what it can enable you to do with VAG vehicles compared to what MES lets you do with FIATs. It's very different to use though but there are many tutorials on you tube which you could explore. I bought my copy from Derek at Ilexa: https://www.ilexa.co.uk/ and have received continuing support even now many years down the line from when I bought it. He's even sent me new program discs when I changed from Vista to Win 10 and found I couldn't use the original discs to get it up and running with Win 10 all free of charge. He himself is actually working on cars and will answer his phone - returning a call on the same day usually - to give advice on problems. Then there's Gendan who also sell the gear and the excellent backup we know can be relied upon from their Grant. I think Derek is the more "hands on" technically knowledgeable of the two.
Sorry if I've not helped much? Please do ask away if you've any more specific queries you'd like to throw at me but I don't make any promises I'll be able to help. On the other hand, two heads and all that? Just one parting thought, and I'm sorry if it's a bit "defeatist". You've had a number of "professionals" working on this including a VAG indy specialist, to say nothing of the money spent, and little or no progress is being made. Are you maybe being a little "optimistic" to think that you're going to sort this mess out when they couldn't? Sorry, just a thought.
Good luck with this and please do keep us informed
Kindest regards
Jock
Thanks Jock
I called Gendan last week and Sam was helpful.. understood what I was asking and suggested posting on the RossTech
Forum
The Generation of Immobiliser on this 2014 golf being a prime point of enquiry
Its a HighOutput motor.. so probably an 'EarlyAdopter' of tech
Partial update:
Another 'stock' ECU has now been fitted
It cranks, fires and cuts
( this used to be 'repeatable'.. but the resident ECU now only fires the motor from cold.. as does this new substitute)
It will then just crank aimlessly..
Adding to my suspicions the ECU is losing connection to a required feedback
These CUNA motors have a daft amount of kit on..
DMF had to be removed to check a 3rd timing reference.. it was 3 teeth out.. but made no discernable difference.
Back to basics..and try VCDS to 'see ' what the various live data feeds can tell us
Enjoy your break !!
I called Gendan last week and Sam was helpful.. understood what I was asking and suggested posting on the RossTech
Forum
The Generation of Immobiliser on this 2014 golf being a prime point of enquiry
Its a HighOutput motor.. so probably an 'EarlyAdopter' of tech
Partial update:
Another 'stock' ECU has now been fitted
It cranks, fires and cuts
( this used to be 'repeatable'.. but the resident ECU now only fires the motor from cold.. as does this new substitute)
It will then just crank aimlessly..
Adding to my suspicions the ECU is losing connection to a required feedback
These CUNA motors have a daft amount of kit on..
DMF had to be removed to check a 3rd timing reference.. it was 3 teeth out.. but made no discernable difference.
Back to basics..and try VCDS to 'see ' what the various live data feeds can tell us
Enjoy your break !!
Good luck with it all Charlie, I'm very interested to hear what you find so please do let us all know how it turns out.
"enjoy your break" Yes we're down here in the West Country near Barnstaple on one of our trips to visit Mrs J's sister and our older boy has moved his family into our house "for the duration" so they can enjoy a bit of "city life" whilst we are away - which is nice because it means I don't have to be concerned about the house while we are away.
We came down earlier in the week and had a good journey. No hold ups but heavy traffic in the midlands - which always makes me a little nervous - and only the occasional "lunatic". The top end of our journey is down the A702 to the M74, a twisty but quite fast main road where I was able to asses how the new Falken tyres performed. Have to say I'm very pleased with them. The car felt much more "planted" than it ever did on the old Bridgestones and grips very well indeed on the corners. I continue to be impressed by the balance job Steven did on them as there is absolutely no hint of a tremor through the wheel at any speed.
My daughter and her husband and family have been visiting folk in the lake district and are traveling down today to spend Easter here with us in Devon. Got an email from her about a couple of hours ago saying "We set off at about 10am. M6 south closed. Trying to detour. Will keep you informed" and I've not heard from her since. Oh so glad we traveled earlier in the week!
Kind regards and have a happy Easter - Go easy on the Easter eggs!
Jock
I'm late to this but what concerns me is the cause of the timing errors that have been found.
It could be a mechanical fault. VCDS is very good. I used to use VagCom on my Audi S4 (2.7 twin turbo).
See if you can find an auto electrician near you the uses Pico Automotive diagnostics. Thes ae oscillocope based test that g back to fundamentala rather than what the ECU "thinks" is going on. For exmple relative compression check just by clipping a sensor on the battery lead and ctanking the engine.
Robert G8RPI
Thanks Robert
The garage that performed the engine swap got their man on it.. wiped the ECU..and so the saga continued
Indeed seeing the sensor outputs is a top 3 priority for us now.
Weve recently added a stock VAG ECU..
Ebay supplied.
The motor runs for 2 seconds.. then the 'immob.' Kills it..
This is what others have done.. on initial try
But unfortunately most have been KILLED by 'experts'
The guy that Cleared the Immob.element on the longterm ECU will be getting this one Cleared also to ascertain
1. It runs ok ..(starts more readily)
2. Flags up what errors .. if its the exact same 3 errors.. we have ruled out a bad ECU for relatively little outlay.
Back in the day I used 'BoschDieselService' setting up a mechanically timed motor
I dont know if the Electronic Control era have made them more..or less relevant to this
Proper AutoElectricians seem a rarity
The garage that performed the engine swap got their man on it.. wiped the ECU..and so the saga continued
Indeed seeing the sensor outputs is a top 3 priority for us now.
Weve recently added a stock VAG ECU..
Ebay supplied.
The motor runs for 2 seconds.. then the 'immob.' Kills it..
This is what others have done.. on initial try
But unfortunately most have been KILLED by 'experts'
The guy that Cleared the Immob.element on the longterm ECU will be getting this one Cleared also to ascertain
1. It runs ok ..(starts more readily)
2. Flags up what errors .. if its the exact same 3 errors.. we have ruled out a bad ECU for relatively little outlay.
Back in the day I used 'BoschDieselService' setting up a mechanically timed motor
I dont know if the Electronic Control era have made them more..or less relevant to this
Proper AutoElectricians seem a rarity
You make a very good point Robert. Scanners like VAG-COM (now known as VCDS) and MES let you see what the car's ECU thinks is going on and this doesn't necessarily mean you're seeing "true" values (That makes me think of Eric and Ernie and their famous Andre Previn routine with the piano). It can be very useful to know what the ECU thinks is going on though, especially if you know what it actually should be seeing. An oscilloscope however displays true values because you are sampling directly by back probing connectors etc. I can't justify the cost of the Pico for home use but I've looked a few times at the Far Eastern options. Probably I'm going to be too old and infirm before I make my mind up for it to be worth my while buying one though, much as I covet one.
There are a couple of options now on the horizon
A longer established (possibly older and more OldSchool) VAG place that somebody at work has used
An engineer at work who should be more than capable
We want to establish wether the errors are truly repeatable.. and the ECUs are driving reliably before wasting the time of others.
We got the impression that neither outfit used to this point were untrusting of the OBD results.. we want to check this ourselves
Updates next week
A longer established (possibly older and more OldSchool) VAG place that somebody at work has used
An engineer at work who should be more than capable
We want to establish wether the errors are truly repeatable.. and the ECUs are driving reliably before wasting the time of others.
We got the impression that neither outfit used to this point were untrusting of the OBD results.. we want to check this ourselves
Updates next week
It seems for a Google on these engine's some had issues with the VVT valve/mechanism
Could be related could be not
Could be related could be not
Do you mean oil drainback..leading to long cranking?
We have basically the opposite :-(
We have basically the opposite :-(
@varesecrazy @Pugglt Auld Jock Just found this vid
Nice comparison of VCDS and OBDEleven.
With just the one VAG car, and not needing to do much other than an occasional oil change, if the miles go high enough in a year, I went with ODBEleven. If I was doing as much with this, or more VAG vehicles, I'd be happy to invest in VCDS.
Charlie, you'll see from about 20 minutes in, he shows how live data can be read using OBDEleven. If you want to borrow and play with this, that's easy, it is a dongle, and a tablet.
Nice comparison of VCDS and OBDEleven.
With just the one VAG car, and not needing to do much other than an occasional oil change, if the miles go high enough in a year, I went with ODBEleven. If I was doing as much with this, or more VAG vehicles, I'd be happy to invest in VCDS.
Charlie, you'll see from about 20 minutes in, he shows how live data can be read using OBDEleven. If you want to borrow and play with this, that's easy, it is a dongle, and a tablet.
Thanks PB. I'll be taking a careful look at that when I have my tea this afternoon.
Thanks Nigel
I will have a good look later
I will have a good look later
That was a very interesting video and I'm going to watch it again, maybe more than once, but I think I'm glad I bought the VAG-COM and would make the same decision again if I was going for one today.
