I’ve had a dozen Classic Panda’s, including my current Selecta, which I’ve now bought twiceI had 3 of them, 750, 1000, and 1100.
And a trio of MK3’s.
It’s ok, I’m receiving help
Here it is, officially the new Panda
- Thread starter AndyRKett
- Start date
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Here it is, officially the new Panda
And a trio of MK3’s.
It’s ok, I’m receiving help
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
The Panda Virus is mentioned in the Netherlands Fiat Panda Club site. It, and OPD (Obsessive Panda Disease) are untreatable maladies. You are beyond help and your only hope of a cure rests in deep space. Sufferers are however not dangerous just skint.I’ve had a dozen Classic Panda’s, including my current Selecta, which I’ve now bought twice
And a trio of MK3’s.
It’s ok, I’m receiving help
The first Panda I drove was a hire car in the canaries many years ago. It must have been a Mk 1 (not sure) as it had the deck chair seats and a similar dash.
I didn't think much of it at the time, although it did serve us well, but looking back I'd love one now.
I didn't think much of it at the time, although it did serve us well, but looking back I'd love one now.
No help needed, just an award, and our heartfelt praise.It’s ok, I’m receiving help
My first had the deckchair seats, surprisingly comfortable, even on long runs, and it did quite a few. (45k in 2 years) Gave a colleague a lift home once. After a few minutes, he remarked, "there's no BS in this car".
Thankyou. I’ve had a Panda, sometimes a pair - and once a trio, consistently since 2004.
Most are in my gallery/garage.
I think it could be a interesting Panda, if it will be based on this Concept.
I would choose the EV though, not a fan of the Peugeot Puretech SH#T.
Ad some little changes and pastel colour to it, like on the 141A back in the days.
I would choose the EV though, not a fan of the Peugeot Puretech SH#T.
Ad some little changes and pastel colour to it, like on the 141A back in the days.
Those Panda concepts look like they've at least tried to keep in with the character of the original - even if it's just colour coding and 'boxiness'. A lot of Stellantis cars now have that same 'boxiness' so I'd say the final product could well look like those concepts.
The 1.2 PureTech turbo is crap. Living with a 130hp / auto unit in a courtesy car VX Grandland. Whilst it is surprisingly quick for such a small engine (thanks to a turbo) the more power they force through these little blocks, the worse they do in real life. Choppy, throwy, noisy, really not happy engines. Can't see many getting past 100k gracefully. Or 150k, in any decent state.
If EU regulators put as much thought into the laws that led to this appalling trend of passing tests with tiny engines and big turbos as they did into bullying private companies like Apple, we'd probably be in a much better place in terms of cars that are reliable, refined and economical.
The 1.2 PureTech turbo is crap. Living with a 130hp / auto unit in a courtesy car VX Grandland. Whilst it is surprisingly quick for such a small engine (thanks to a turbo) the more power they force through these little blocks, the worse they do in real life. Choppy, throwy, noisy, really not happy engines. Can't see many getting past 100k gracefully. Or 150k, in any decent state.
If EU regulators put as much thought into the laws that led to this appalling trend of passing tests with tiny engines and big turbos as they did into bullying private companies like Apple, we'd probably be in a much better place in terms of cars that are reliable, refined and economical.
I wonder what is wrong with the new FIAT Firefly 3 and 4 cilinder engines, that they are not be used anymore. ??
I think they are better engines then what Peugeot has to offer, IMHO.
I think they are better engines then what Peugeot has to offer, IMHO.
2 things..
1. the engine spec and gearbox in the Grandland will never be fitted to a Panda as it is already out of production. In a Panda it'll likely have 100bhp and 14bhp of hybrid with a DSG or just 100bhp and a manual.
2. In a car that isn't an automatic Grandland it's entirely happy. Given about 1000kg rather than 1500 and without an autobox set up by Vauxhalls work experience kid it's a very good small car engine.
Some side points..what do choppy and throwy mean in the context of an engine? I can imagine them applying to gearbox or ride quality but how can an engine be Throwy?
Even the economy...well you got 40mpg out of an eco-diesel so 32mpg out of petrol automatic SUV seems reasonable.
Costs, very simple they've spent billions refining the 1.2 since it came out. Fiat spent £2.50 on further development of the firefly after release so it's unlikely it will pass euro 7 without further billions. Which is pointless just to waste money on tooling a for an engine they don't need.
Away from internet hyperbole, 98% of the common faults with the Puretech come down to people ignoring service intervals for things like timing belts...or oil and then screaming when that comes back to land.
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The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
Thats fine. You are well adjusted and dont need help, except getting the next Panda! lolI’ve had a dozen Classic Panda’s, including my current Selecta, which I’ve now bought twice
And a trio of MK3’s.
It’s ok, I’m receiving help
There is no experiencing the engine or gearbox independently. As they are mated together and function together both contribute to the experience that is choppy and throwy. What I mean is at speed, accelerating especially it feels clumsy and will rev up very loud then you feel a big mechanical thump as it changes gears which throws the car back and again results in a horrible disturbingly loud and unsettled roar from the engine. And then, at speed and in slow moving traffic (particularly start/stop) it throws you out of your seat either gently, or abruptly because as you come rolling to a stop, the actual stop itself is accompanied by the engine shutting off for start stop, and when it does, the car throws you forward in your seat before coming to a complete stop. Then, you move off as is very common in this scenario as the car in front rolls slowly forward only to stop a few car lengths, and the take off again is noisy, choppy and the throwing forward / back of passengers in the seat is why I keep using that word.
I'm not an expert on car design but I am quite certain that such a tiny engine with not a lot of range in its power output means that there is great difficulty in trying to have a suitable gear to be in. Whilst the turbo charger can provide ample feeling enough power and acceleration on the move (which it actually does in the Grandland, at the cost of decent mpg), it can't compensate for the lack of the engines ability to keep up with eve changing road conditions / drivers input demand. I think that's why it's so poorly coordinated. I think if this was a bigger engine with much a much longer or smoother power / acceleration curve, the gearbox would be better able to fit a gear into where the power demand on the engine at that moment. Potentially butchered the explanation, but I know such a thing applies in reality - my DS3 had 120hp diesel / manual, my friends i40 at the time had a 136hp diesel / manual. The DS3 could leave it for dead at a traffic light but once up to speed, the better gearbox on the bigger i40 was a far, far better performing thing on the motorway. Not that either of those, or the Grandland are designed with 0-60 in mind, but it was a good demo to me of how gearboxes / engines / power outputs can excel in different areas.
Probably in a lot of cases, you're right. People ignoring servicing. But I've been driving / involved with cars now long enough to know that there are still bad / poor engines in new cars even from reputable manufacturers. If not an outright poor engine, an outright poor application - whether it's a car too big for the engine or a bad gearbox. I've seen too many people with the 2016-18 Avensis 1.6 diesels that have had to have new turbos, new EGRs, snapped chains and those were serviced like clockwork. And I'm not saying the BMW engine (in that later revision) was bad as it's still doing well in Mini's / 1 series that they were made for.. but in the Avensis, absolutely poor engine, unreliable and not even great to live with in the first place. You can't write that off to people not maintaining them.
And then, as I've put on here before, that 1.0 PureTech we had, at 3 years old leaking oil more than my 05 Panda ever did... that was 'dealer serviced' for the first three years. But even if it had been neglected, that still wouldn't have been long enough realistically to warrant such leaking. That thing was the same, horrible clutch, noisy, unrefined, jerky although could be counteracted with being used to driving it daily.
That, and now the Grandland, is why I have no real respect for the PureTech. And all of the horrible experiences I read of petrol DS3's on those owner forums / groups - never much issue with the diesel versions except for the usual diesel stuff.
Fiat under invested in the FireFly as usual.. but I also wish they proceeded with it. Look at the TwinAir, whilst Ford are losing court battles in the US over it's EcoBoost fiasco, Fiat's even smaller two cylinder petrol engine from 2010s era, we all feared wouldn't last.. we all feared Fiat had no clue when they kept changing the oil spec in the early years. And look, we're seeing those rack up 150k mileage from owners on here. When they build an engine, they build it robustly. Nobody else, bar Toyota, produced a half decent 'small engine big turbo' that lasted. I applaud Fiat for being one of the few who actually picked up that trend of cutting the cylinders, but actually producing something reliable in the long run. The PureTech, whether it's good or bad, will be the choice going forward because Peugeot is the core of Stellantis and has already rolled out and ramped up production of the PureTech across all of its brands. Obviously, Fiat's engines would take more work to evolve into the range. I understand the business choice. But I don't think for one second it means that the PureTech is the better engine... not at all. Perhaps more flexible, but if that flexibility is leading to cars like the 37k Grandland, it's not a drivetrain I'd look forward to owning or living with.
All of that said, a 1.2 turbo or non turbo or hybrid has plenty of business being in a future Panda, and I'm sure even a cheap gearbox will be a fairly decent and reliable experience for owners. I look forward to at least test driving whatever eventually comes out as a New Panda.
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
Test drive... me too just to see then off to Suzuki.
Vauxhall have not been wonderful since they sold mainly to business. They do build a tremndously strong car and strong engines and gearboxes, or did before the stick insect took over. I have had a Cavalier, two vectras and a pile of Astras as company cars and tehy had some good qualities. The strength of teh Vectra was substantial. I remember forgetting a meeting with my MD and he rang and said alright for 10?? Oh yes I said. I was there bang on 10 125 miles away. I really thought I had killed the car but after the brakes stopped glowing red and it cooled down all that was needed was a set of brake pads. But style of more important Brio. None, zilch, zero and nowt in evidence. For some who are not interested in anything but getting there they are great, but if you have soul that needs the brio not so good. I respect them a lot but wouldnt buy one. The new crop are worth a try thoiugh to see how they have changed. I dont mid Pooh-joes but I hate the comapny who are another bunch of disreputtable shot changing ****. My Dad bought many until they abused him and cost him a lot of miney. He may be 10 years dead but nobody in my family will deal with them again. Im glad to say they have lost at leat a dozen sales to date, and Im still going.
The Grandland is POS that not even the engineers working on it cared about. Both the engine and the gearbox work in other cars together so I can only assume Vauxhall couldn't be bothered to tune it to the application.
However this is not applicable when it comes to the Panda as it will have the new engine with the timing chain and variable vane turbo and if it's an automatic it will have a DSG and Hybrid that allows low speed electric movement rather than switching the engine on and off constantly in slow traffic.
Also there's a reasonable chance the kerb weight will be around 1050kg so the 151lb/ft of torque the engine produces in the lower powered versions should be more than sufficient to shove it down the road without any histrionics.
For context the Toyota Prius drivetrain from about 2010 generates a maximum of 153lb/ft of torque from a combination of both the engine and the electric motor and has 400kg more to move.
If anything it could be pretty nippy..
In terms of car engines...you build several million engines and the Puretech is in a great number of the best selling cars in Europe even a failure rate of 0.5% represents huge numbers of cars.
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Yeah I had quite the soft spot for modern GM derived Vauxhall. Most of our family cars growing up were Astra's / Corsa's. The first car I drove for around a year shared with family was a 2004 Corsa with a little 1.0 engine. Not a great engine for longevity but it lasted six years of my mum owning it, never getting it a service before finally blowing! (In that case, all her fault, but I remember others in the family kicking it not long after 100k even with servicing). They had a lifetime warranty in the last decade didn't they? Which, was something I suppose if you bought one new. My dad had various (already older) Astra's from an SRI to an estate and finally, before he died, a mid 2000s shape one in hatchback form. They were usually petrols and he did a lot of miles up and down England to and from lorry yards. They were usually fine until they weren't, in other words, off to the mechanic and then they'd never come back due to some problem not worth fixing. He did trade if for a 307 at one point, which seemed a nicer car in terms of drive / comfort but was the worst in that it had visual and audible errors (mostly ABS faults) you'd be reminded of on every start up which my dad reckoned the mechanics told him weren't worth fixing.. who knows what was going on. But the 307 was the shortest lived of his various beater cars. I'm not a fan, but solely based on my DS3 experience really.
I agree fully with this!
I think we will see all Stellantis stuff improve, after all, the bigger they get and the more models they put these things into, they'll be able to use VAG's secret weapon of having a huge pool of cash coming in from all the brands to put some serious R&D into future drivetrains and engineering, hopefully raising the bar as VAG did with even it's mainstream brands in terms of driving quality, touch and feel and refinement etc. Can't be a bad thing for the buyer going forward with such a big company behind all the cars.
I really miss the electric take off from the Lexus. Perhaps that's why I'm so sensitive to how the Grandland moves off. Then again, the CLA had no issues and that was a big bad diesel.. I suppose your first point above covers this one! haha
I definitely think going forward they'll benefit from much larger R&D budgets. Instead of FCA having its own limited budget, and PSA having it's own limited budget, and Opel having it's own limited budget, all trying to compete with VAG... Renault Group... the Japanese, now they've got a bigger bank account and more talent. I can't see the engineers behind Fiat's strong points in the last 20 years going to waste either. I suppose all three, PSA, Fiat, Opel people are all faced with a huge challenge that they probably couldn't have done well at on their own: electrification. Be it BEVs, or 'proper' Hybrids going forward. Fiat was all in on small petrol, PSA was all in on diesel and Opel was, well, sort of half-assed on both petrols and diesels and non existent on Hybrid tech!
I was slating the Grandland for its 1.2 engine being tiny. 1.2 is optimal for a car the size of the Panda, even without a turbo
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
Noop can cruise at an indicated 100 with ludicrous ease. Sp 874cc seems adequate. Time will tell about engine life but servicing will all be done and I expect he will outlast me by a few years. Normally he is driven for economy and isnt too bad either. Ideally it woiuld have a proper hybrid electric motor as well. I suppose it just might not fit under the bonnet. I want some air horns but there aint room even for them. I ask you an Italian car without the full Maserati air horns ... whatever next.
I’m quite pleased reading the posts of the TwinAir owners starting to rack up some serious mileage. It shows how well engineered Fiat’s engines are when they put their mind to it. In contrast to the rest of the industry, many of whom are racing lawsuits for how bad their small engines with big turbos. Ford is the most notable example with the EcoBoost and the fires
