Northern Auto Tech - ECU and Blue & Me Repairs

Technical Headlamp pods (again)

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Technical Headlamp pods (again)

Scotty1956 said:
Fuse 7. labeled as fuse R Services. - yes, there is an annotation in the Bertone electrical stuff, it is noted to be now a 25amp fuse.
It is a 7.5amp in my car however.
I have not analysed that circuit yet in detail to understand why 25amp is required rather than the 7.5amp. The fusing philosophy used in power distribution is protect the cables and not the appliance. So the fuse mustn't melt when feeding a bulb and the wire should be capable of carrying the fault current until the fuse (or circuit breaker) acts. A fairly complex subject.
Click to expand...

yes that's my understanding of fuses also, except that in addition I am used to seeing two ratings on automotive fuses (of earlier design): quick blow rating for large continual drains and a slow blow rating for the diagnosis and so they are not blown by momentary inrush currents.
I did not know there was an annotation to 25A. Can 4 x 21w indicators (when acting as hazards) operating at the same time as eg the wash/wipe function add up to say 18A with headroom to 25A?

RDS
 
RDS said:
upon switching on the ignition to “run” (don’t forget I have no power to coil, I return to this in another post to keep things simple) I saw that the sidelights front and rear were “on”, this was whether or not the Panda headlamp switch was on or off positions.

Even when removing the white and brown 12v feeds to the switch, this sidelights remained on. The only way to turn them off for the purpose of investigation was to remove the two 7.5A fuses.

Something has gone terribly wrong here and, with the non-operative light pods, I think I will have to strip out the extra relays and revert to the standard switch and lighting arrangement pending resolution of one issue at a time. Do you agree? However, reinstating the original switch made no difference to the non-operation of the light pods or to the newly discovered “always on” operation of the sidelights.
Click to expand...

RDS - something isn't right with your Panda relay switch arrangement here. Trouble is, this is a difficult to see issue. I would trace out - draw the circuit as you now have it and we can try and take it from there.
I did the very same thing when my 70amp relay (to slave the ignition switch) didn't turn off when expected, I needed to really understand what was happening, kinda serious when you can't stop the engine! All great now and I think that was down to the poorly drawn ignition switch wiring in Haynes (like to think it wasn't my understanding).
It all should be really straightforward and it is once some of the circuit diagrams are taken with an unhealthy pinch of salt.
 
I just realised that my post on Jim's thread might look like a hi-jack; apologies - I meant to post the info below on this thread anyway:


Over the past few days I have worked through the Panda switch plus 4-relay bank and after it did not work initially, it now does allow the pods to lower (albeit with switch and relay bank hanging loose and not properly installed) but this success was only after I checked for loose connectors and started the and ran the lights on full beam, then switched lights off.

The pods did not lower if using dipped beam only; as yet I do not know why - any ideas? Though I saw that I was only getting 10.8v at the switch on the Green wire in position 3 (headlamp).....

However I did feel some heat coming from the fuseblock: from relays E2 (parking lamps and headlamp raising control) and E6 (power windows - why? I never touched E6 or the windows).

Then, looking at the fuses, I saw that again fuse O aka 4 (R/H headlamp) had melted but not broken. I am now on the hunt for the cause of the excess current, maybe there is corrosion on the bulb terminals or an intermediate connector.

As mentioned by Scotty, even with the Panda+4 relay bank protecting the switch, the lights need relays and I am now more determined to add those extra relays for the headlamps and hope to make progress with that tomorrow, with the harness crossing the car from headlamp hatch to hatch in trunking under the carpet and using wire quoted as able to carry 65A (overkill no doubt). There are some small (factory) holes in the inner wing metal leading to the hatch areas and i will need to open those up, fit grommets and thread the wires through.
 
Well, finally I have built and fitted the 4 relay bank for the Panda switch conversion and two 2 relay banks in the pod motor areas. I must say, the lights are much brighter. However the pods do not retract, still.

Am I testing for a single impulse upon the light switch sliding back to "OFF" to make the motors operate downwards or a continuous state of affairs , after the light switch is slid back to "OFF"? Where am I to test for that impulse or state?

Cheers

RDS
 
I don't think the "Impulse" is a generated pulse but an effect of a couple of things happening as you switch off the headlamps.
Sorry to be vague but I would need to refresh my understanding of how the switch interacts with the "pods down" and I have just forgotten what that was. I will dust off my electrical file and see if I can describe the operation again. More to come.....
Time for a wee dram! ��
 
Hello Scotty

many thanks in advance. I have blown mental circuits over trying to understand this arrangement especially after reading many different threads on it. The diagrams leave a lot to be desired.......and leave out a lot of the internal connections in the motors but show others eg the diodes.

Surely it cannot be that the pods only come down with the engine running rather than when merely having the ignition key on the "Run" setting, with engine off?

The problem is knowing where to test, and when, and if two people are needed: one to operate the ignition key and switch and the other to measure with the Multimeter.

Cheers

RDS
 
Ok, I will visit my car tomorrow and take careful note of how the lights / motors work.
I haven't yet gotten around to re-reading the circuit diagrams and my head around it all.
Agreed the 'circuit diagrams' in Haynes etc are not clear and indeed detailed sufficiently to permit obvious understanding of this operation. I will get my head around it soon.
 
Headlamp Pods Logic: on my '85 UK car, the Pods go down (in Sidelights on) when either the IGN - OR - the Sidelights are switched off.
When the Headlights are On the Pods stay Up when the IGN is switched off
The Pods will go down again when the Headlamps switch is moved to Sidelights.
 
Hello Scotty

that is interesting but even that does not seem to coincide exactly with the "official" position according to the Electrical Manual (at least for the market for which the manual was produced) - I cannot link it here but will PM it to you for your review.

Of course now i cannot remember the functionality of my own pods now; but except to say they will not retract to "closed" when the ignition switch and/or the light switch is moved to OFF. Sometimes, in daylight with the switch off, the pods will retract of their own volition after being open, and (before I fitted the relay banks - not tested it on the road yet) they will close if the last say 5 mins of use was on mainbeam (not dipped beam) before shut off.

This is rather odd as i do not know where to test. All the earths are ok and the relays test ok on the bench. Thus I do not know if I am looking for a voltage impulse and momentary current flow to jolt the motors into retracting or a continual current state of current.

Could it be that the wiper contacts inside the motors are dirty and so making intermittent contact? If so, has anyone had the motors apart to access the contacts?

Cheers

RDS
 
Ok, I have looked in the clear light of day at all my circuit diagrams.

The function of the original light switch is really simple - honest! -
- +12v comes in on the White wire
- +12v Ignition comes in on the Brown and on the Black wire
- With the Lighting switch on the Sidelights position, the switch selects +12v from the White wire and feeds the sidelight circuit via the Lightblue/Red wire, which then feeds the two 7.5A fuses and so onto all the sidelight bulbs.
- With the Lighting switch on the Headlights position, the switch selects +12v Ignition power from the Brown wire now and feeds the sidelight circuit as before.

The Lighting switch has two independent switch poles inside, the function of one of these poles is described above, it only switches on the sidelights.

The second pole is fed by the Brown wire (+12v Ignition) and does the following with it:-
- With the Lighting switch on the Sidelights position, this part of the lighting switch does nothing.
- With the Lighting switch on the Headlights position, this part of the switch feeds the dipped beam lights (via a relay contact and via the dip/mainbean stalk.

- What is interesting, is that with the Lighting switch in the Off position, it feeds +12v Ignition out (from the Brown wire feed), and over the light blue/white wire - onto the Headlamp Pods Down part of the circuits.
It could be this +12v output signal is what you are missing, it should be present all the time Ign is on and the Lighting switch is off. This is the "command" that says - Pods Down.
 
Hello Scotty

many thanks indeed for this; it is mind bending to follow the circuits. I should have got going with the car already today but other things have intervened and am now on it!

I arrived at more or less the same analysis as to the functions of the white, black and brown wires and the continuity between the switch terminals, the other week by drawing up a matrix of switch positions against voltages at different wires at the lighting switch terminals (before installing the Panda switch/relay mod). I will see if I can insert the results into a table on a separate post in case anyone needs them.

However, ignoring the inevitable voltage drop inherent in the original set up, I was (and hopefully still am - will check when with the car shortly) getting 12v to the light blue/white wire with ignition in RUN and headlight switch in the OFF positions. BUT pods are still up.

Added to the fact that the pods used to sometimes retract after a while driving with the switch OFF or after driving on Mainbeam for 5 mins, leads me to believe that the issue is not one of the lack of power or, if you will, signal to retract, but somewhere else eg dirty contacts in the motor.

I cannot see it being an earth issue because the terminals have been cleaned and the pods open willingly and fast.

I will therefore check the voltage to blue white with the ignition in RUN and the switch OFF to see if 12v is present.

As to the motor contacts, has anyone accessed those contacts and can describe the process?

Cheers

RDS
 
Maybe check the relays
E2 relay should open with no Ignition
E3 and E5 should get 12v to their coils (terminals 85) to make the motors run
are their terminals 86 grounded ok?
Jumping a wire to them (very briefly) should kick the motors to run.
 
In between rain showers I checked for voltage to blue/white wire with the ignition in RUN and the switch OFF to see if 12v is present - yes I have 12v. I also have good ground at the motors

So, that establishes that the power is at the switch and also at least intermittently at the motor (given that the pods sometimes retract). I'd say this indicates any of the following:
a poor/unsecure 12v feed to the motor or
similar for the diodes or
similar for the earth wire
the thermal break in the motors keep activating or
the internal wiper contacts of the motor are corroded.

re your tests for the relays, I have put the fuseblock back together into the fuse board so is the best way to test the voltages at the relay pins to put extension wires into the relay terminals like a break-out box and test there?

cheers

RDS
 
Last edited:
Ok, good
Now my thoughts were taking the route of the ground/s on the relays at the fusebox, so the fusebox needs a ground too - for its relays.
You could also swap / check the relays with the changeover contacts.
Guess the simple internal contacts that sense the down position are worth a look - BUT - remember the contacts & the diode on the passenger side Pod motor is independent from the Drivers side, until the wiring harness gets back to the fusebox. You I believe, are looking at something that effects both sides, something in common. If the power is ok up to the fusebox (for the down signal) then the fusebox is the next item in common.
Could replace the 7.5A fuses, first checking for 12v on both sides of the fuses?
Next the internals of the fusebox?? Then the connectors where the (two?) Green/White wires exit to go to the motors limit switches?
 
Scotty1956 said:
Ok, good
Now my thoughts were taking the route of the ground/s on the relays at the fusebox, so the fusebox needs a ground too - for its relays.
You could also swap / check the relays with the changeover contacts.
Guess the simple internal contacts that sense the down position are worth a look - BUT - remember the contacts & the diode on the passenger side Pod motor is independent from the Drivers side, until the wiring harness gets back to the fusebox. You I believe, are looking at something that effects both sides, something in common. If the power is ok up to the fusebox (for the down signal) then the fusebox is the next item in common.
Could replace the 7.5A fuses, first checking for 12v on both sides of the fuses?
Next the internals of the fusebox?? Then the connectors where the (two?) Green/White wires exit to go to the motors limit switches?
Click to expand...
Hi Scotty, not sure if this is any help but I have just found the issue with my 82 X1/9. Symptoms were headlight pods would rise but not lower and daytime lights not working. Fault was a blown 3amp fuse at position 15. It is a different length fuse in 15 and 16 on mine, about 16mm long, not the usual 25mm on the rest of the fuse box. If you haven’t resolved the issue with yours it may be worth checking out.
 
Antipodes said:
Hi Scotty, not sure if this is any help but I have just found the issue with my 82 X1/9. Symptoms were headlight pods would rise but not lower and daytime lights not working. Fault was a blown 3amp fuse at position 15. It is a different length fuse in 15 and 16 on mine, about 16mm long, not the usual 25mm on the rest of the fuse box. If you haven’t resolved the issue with yours it may be worth checking out.
Click to expand...
 
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