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Old 23-05-2021   #1
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Bertone X1/9 no headlights

Hello from Down Under.

We have a 1984 Bertone X1/9.

As seems common, the dashboard headlight switch has died.

As a temporary thing, I've replaced it with two switches. One for up and down on the lift motors, and another one for the lights on/off.


The up/down is fine, but the head lights do not illuminate - neither low or high beam.


Sidelights turn on, taillights turn on, lights-on indicator on the dash illuminates.

If I flick the high beam switch I get a click from the relays and the dash indicator comes on, but not the headlamps.

Flashing the lights with the column clicks the relays - but no lights


My tech knowledge is not great, and automotive electrics are a dark art to me.

I would appreciate any suggestions to try to get the car working again.

Thanks

Jim

.
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Old 30-05-2021   #2
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Re: Bertone X1/9 no headlights

Hello Jim

i am in a similar but slightly different boat to you.

Are you getting any voltages (after the courtesy light times out) at any of the wires at the switch?
White should show 12v with key on or off
Brown 12v with key on
Black 12v with key on
Have you taken the slider switch apart to check the internal connections are doing their job?
Can you tell me what wires you connected up to make the pods go up and down?
I have lights but no pod motors.

Thanks

RDS
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Old 01-06-2021   #3
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Re: Bertone X1/9 no headlights

Check the dipped headlight fuses, think they should be 10amp (red ones).
Sometimes when bulb filaments blow they take out the fuse with them.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #4
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Re: Bertone X1/9 no headlights

Quote Originally Posted by RDS View Post
Hello Jim

i am in a similar but slightly different boat to you.

Are you getting any voltages (after the courtesy light times out) at any of the wires at the switch?
White should show 12v with key on or off
Brown 12v with key on
Black 12v with key on
Have you taken the slider switch apart to check the internal connections are doing their job?
Can you tell me what wires you connected up to make the pods go up and down?
I have lights but no pod motors.

Thanks

RDS
Had some time to play with this a little further.

With the ignition on, I have 12v at the switch on Black, Brown and White.

Lights go up and down with White switched to Blue/Red and Blue. There is also a connection from Brown to Blue/Red which is switched by the main switch.

Lights are controlled by switching either Black or Brown to Green.

Tail lights go on. Green lights-on indicator on the dash illuminates.

Green wire goes to the column dip switch - this appears to be working - get the beam warning light on the dash coming on.

From there both low and high beam are routed to a relay on the fuse box. Currently (ha ha) I think this is where the problem lies.

I don't think it is the fuses - both sides and both beams have individually fused, and all four seem good. Also have checked the lights seem to be earthing properly.

The fuse box in this car seems to be a combination of old and new style - ceramic fuses with relays distributed like the later style

The issue now is "which relay?" - I can find no documentation of which relay does what.

> RDS:I have lights but no pod motors.

According to the diagrams in the Haynes manual, there is a relay that controls the pod motors - maybe yours is bad?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #5
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Re: Bertone X1/9 no headlights

You could try swapping out relay E4, it controls the dip / main beam
but not sure if your car has ceramic as well as blade fuses, just not seen the combination.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #6
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Re: Bertone X1/9 no headlights

Sorry, just read you are unsure which relay is which.....
E4 is second in from the right, so above fuse F
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #7
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Re: Bertone X1/9 no headlights

Jim
thanks for the update.

Fuses: I had a few (maxi fuse types) blow on me that looked fine from the top and a few that melted that were still intact. Best to inspect each of them, by taking out clean off the tabs/ends and spray some contact cleaner into them,

As for the relays, although they can be tested on the bench quite easily, with that many it paid me to buy a dedicated 4 and 5 pin relay tester from ebay for 6 delivered.

Some in the fuseboard tested ok as 4 pin relays (even though they had 5 pins) and others tested ok as 5 pins (chiefly the 2 relays related to pod motors E3 E5 and the relay relating to headlamp raising control E2).

cheers RDS
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #8
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Re: Bertone X1/9 no headlights

Jim,
I have a similar problem lighting is all over the place. I'm guessing it's the switch, so I'm going for the Panda replacement with amendments to the relays.
I'm build the relays and wiring amendments but haven't fitted it to the car yet.
I keep putting it off and/or can never find the time.
I'll let you know how it goes.

Regards
Simon (I'm in the UK)
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #9
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Re: Bertone X1/9 no headlights

Simon

yes please do let us know how you get on: I am part way through the Panda switch conversion using the awful instructions that are recommended to use and am having a terrible time.

If you can make head or tail of the instructions, do post your suggested amendments. I am collating mine and it would be good to correct the inaccuracies, mistakes and poor English on them for future users. Am happy to collaborate on that. Sadly the supplier is giving limited help only.

Where are you locating the relays?

Cheers

RDS
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Old 1 Week Ago   #10
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Re: Bertone X1/9 no headlights

Why use relays?


I'm sure there are solid state opto-isolators that would switch that load.

They would easily fit in just behind the switch.

Keen to see what you guys come up with either way...
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Old 1 Week Ago   #11
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Re: Bertone X1/9 no headlights

Hello Jim

any links for such products please?

I sat down with a design engineer yesterday and we tried to go through the Haynes diagram and the Panda switch mod. he was left scratching his head at first glance but is interested to see how the whole system is supposed to work with a view to seeing what has happened to mine (remotely) and how the thing might be improved.

[My complication is that I actually like the dim-dip function, but if that is not feasible to keep, then I want the pods to stay down on side-lights but to flip up on "flash to pass" from the column stalk.]

To present to he engineer the sum of knowledge (not mere supposition of how the system works) as it currently is, ie as to how the fusebox relays are arranged, how the headlight switch works, how the diode packs work and how the bell crank is arranged, I will have to do some extensive digging into all the posts on both fora (that's your actual Latin plural!), unless anyone can point to a detailed article (with pictures preferably!) where that has already been done.

I am still tired out after a weekend on the ignition and lighting issues and so have not posted any findings yet.

Thanks again.

RDS
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Old 4 Days Ago   #12
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Re: Bertone X1/9 no headlights

Quote Originally Posted by jim cox View Post
Why use relays?


I'm sure there are solid state opto-isolators that would switch that load.

They would easily fit in just behind the switch.

Keen to see what you guys come up with either way...
Opto-Isolators / switches to control 12volt headlights !??
Sorry, but in my humble opinion and knowledge of electronics, the components to do that would be both complex and a fair bit of work! not to mention expensive. Power FETs may be required to switch the current with a low on resistance. The use of relays are simple to understand, reliable and readily repairable if required, in addition relays are very fault tolerant to wiring or current surges caused by lamp failure.

If you have a proven circuit design to do this then I am sure there are many on here who would love to see it. It could have a wider application to switch many other loads in our cars.

As I think I and several others have said, 'a stitch in time', i.e. fitting current slaves (relays) to each filament will both save these hard to replace ignition switches and lighting switches by using them to only need to carry the current to operate the relay coils (usually <0.1amp) while the relay contacts switch the many amps for the loads. The added benefit when the relays are fed with new +12v wires from fused battery feed is the load (headlights, window motors, wipers etc) get direct fresh +12v power allowing headlights etc to operate properly.
So, great and bright standard headlights or fast window motors etc while saving the switches and hopefully the requirement to replace them in the future.
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Old 3 Days Ago   #13
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Re: Bertone X1/9 no headlights

Yes, Scotty has posed the conundrum re the opto isolators far more elegantly than I!

Over the past few days I have worked through the Panda switch plus 4-relay bank and after it did not work initially, it now does allow the pods to lower (albeit with switch and relay bank hanging loose and not properly installed) but this success was only after I checked for loose connectors and started the and ran the lights on full beam, then switched lights off.

The pods did not lower if using dipped beam only; as yet I do not know why - any ideas? Though I saw that I was only getting 10.8v at the switch on the Green wire in position 3 (headlamp).....

However I did feel some heat coming from the fuseblock: from relays E2 (parking lamps and headlamp raising control) and E6 (power windows - why? I never touched E6 or the windows).

Then, looking at the fuses, I saw that again fuse O aka 4 (R/H headlamp) had melted but not broken. I am now on the hunt for the cause of the excess current, maybe there is corrosion on the bulb terminals or an intermediate connector.

As mentioned by Scotty, even with the Panda+4 relay bank protecting the switch, the lights need relays and I am now more determined to add those extra relays for the headlamps and hope to make progress with that tomorrow, with the harness crossing the car from headlamp hatch to hatch in trunking under the carpet and using wire quoted as able to carry 65A (overkill no doubt). There are some small (factory) holes in the inner wing metal leading to the hatch areas and i will need to open those up, fit grommets and thread the wires through.
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Old 3 Days Ago   #14
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Re: Bertone X1/9 no headlights

Jim, I might have inadvertently hi-jacked your thread, so I have copied my last comment back into my similar thread which is going on at the same time. Hopefully some of the info will be of interest to you too. Apologies.

cheers
RDS
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