Hello again

can anyone shed any light (pun ignorable as you prefer) on some odd issues that I am experiencing with the car, please?

Just the other day (after a bit of a lay up over the winter) I noticed that I was getting a glow from both the door courtesy lamps even with the doors closed fully. The glow is visible only really at night. Then the day after, the problem was gone. It is no doubt bound to return. Anyone else had this? I do not think the door switches are the issue but will clean them up.

Looking at the Haynes wiring diagram for the 1500cc car, I am not convinced that it is accurate, however the items in the circuit are the door plunger switches, courtesy lamps control switch and courtesy lamp timer.
It may be that there is a poor connection at either of the latter two or an internal component problem. However, what do the courtesy lamps control switch and courtesy lamp timer look like and where are they?

My problems with the hazard switch and indicators (explained below) may not seem to be linked to the courtesy lamp problem but the circuit of the courtesy lamps appear to go through the connector behind the hazard switch; which I have had apart and cleaned without improving the issues.

Turning to the hazard switch and indicators, the problem here is that although the indicators operate well in the usual course of things, if after I operate the hazards with the indicator stalk in neutral position, I then try to use the indicators left or right, they fail to operate at all.

Taking the hazard switch out and moving the connector back a little restores the indicators...until I next use the hazard switch. Anyone else have this?

Do we think that this is all due to something amiss with the actual connectors in the connector block (as I do), or some issue with the switch operation or something else.

NB the proper operation of the courtesy lamps returned before the problem with the indicators re-occurred.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers

RDS

Probably the hazard relay. Had something similar with my Alfa recently - use hazards, then right indicators on permanently, not flashing!

Hello Steve

thanks for this; will see if I can get a relay.

Cheers

RDS

Are the hazard relay?? and the interior lights connected - I am not convinced.
As the interior light override switch and the Hazard switch are located next or near each other, my incline would be the harness (cold, stiff and inflexible at this time of year), could try a hairdryer to warm the wires behind the consol up a bit. (in car factories they warm the harness in ovens to make installation on the production line possible).
I would first though check the earth "castle" connectors under the dash.
Second, the interior lights timer located on the fuse box may have gotten a little damp inside? this is more likely to cause dim door lights. Perhaps take it onto the top of a warm house radiator for an hour to dry it out?
Third, the door switches or their wires may have gotten a little damp or dirty - have a look they are easy to take out and examine. Some grease perhaps?

hello Scotty

it looked like it from the Haynes diagrams; into the rear connectors anyway. I will go through them and list out for discussion.

Out of interest i put the relays from the fuse box through a relay tester. All passed (albeit if they were tested as 4-pin instead of 5 pin and vice versa) except the cylindrical hazard/indicator relay (3 pin) and the white "courtesy delay unit" (found it at last!) which tested as "failed". However that may be because they were outside the tester's rating.
Nevertheless, I could not get the hazard to work wired up on the bench but it will work on the car to operate the hazards (and stop when the switch is pressed again). If you try the indicators after using the hazards, you have to press the hazard switch a third time to operate the indicators. Why????

cheers

RDS

The Door interior light delay/timeout "relay" module is unlikely to appear to a tester as a simple relay. The only ways to test it would be to check the voltages on its wires or bench test it or indeed open it up and see if it looks ok inside I guess (perhaps that's just me!).
No idea why your hazard / indicators switches operate like that, but I am about to go out to my garage so will check how my car functions ('85 VS UK).

Ok, just been out to my car... Tried the indicators, hazards, indicators, hazards, hazards, indicators, indicators.... All went as expected.
So thinking about it, all the hazard switch does is: switch LH indicators and switch RH indicators together and to the flasher relay. It contains an indicator bulb too which is switched by a 3rd pole. The hazard switch also changes the power feed from ign to the separate +12v fused battery feed when pressed.
Could be if this switch doesn't check out then you may need a new one.

Hello Scotty

I went thought he Haynes book and wrote down the relevant pages and cross referenced the diagrams and various connections in the courtesy lamp and hazard/indicator circuit.....only to leave the notes elsewhere. I will update soon however from memory the courtesy light does go into the back of the hazard switch connector.

The way the schematic is drawn does not make it easy to see what happens within a connector however.

On testing the hazard ad indicators again the other night, having ensured the indicators work, if I then operate the hazards and then press the switch off (with a good push), I have to press the switch again to regain indicators. I'll see if there is a way to take the switch apart. Might just be a dirty contact.

As for the courtesy relay, I may take it apart if it is possible without destruction.

Cheers

RDS

Hmm, Looks like the Hazard switch - has a changeover contact selecting +12v to feed the flashers relay from either a fuse fed from battery power or ignition power, so on battery it allows hazards while the engine isn't running and when it is, the indicators. Seems if this part of the switch is faulty could give rise to part of your issues here.
I agree, following the Haynes wiring diagrams isn't easy (I am a retired electronics engineer!). Are you in the UK Owners club? they have good redrawn wiring diagrams. The Greek X1/9 club also has some good wiring diagrams I think?

Now the link between the courtesy light and this,... I would need to get all my diagrams together and study this one. First gut instinct would be the couple of earth turrets under the dash, I took mine off, cleaned with emery and copper grease. Earth issues can give rise to very unusual happenings!!

Hello Scotty

good to see I am not the only one up late.

Thanks for that; you see what I mean by the block connectors in the wiring diagrams being more of a hindrance than a help? How are you supposed to decode them?

I'll look into the OC diagrams; doesn't ring a bell though. The Greek website i have visited a few times (but "Never on a Sunday"...); I'll have another look there too.

Thanks for making my scant knowledge feel better: I have been trying to study electronics from all sorts of books; "more effort required".

Thanks for the tip on the earth turrets under the dash: I didn't know there was one there. I have cleaned up all others that I have come across.

Would you know off hand of that earth turret carries any circuits that are critical to keeping the engine running? Eg anything like the tacho/sensor, that could ground out the coil or go open circuit say after a period of running and getting warm?

Cheers RDS

Still up! Maybe you could try a replacement Hazard switch?

There are two earth turrets, one on each side. The drivers one is on the side just down from the light switch (on my 85 anyway) and the passenger side one is near the glovebox (can't recall if you need to drop the fusebox to see it??) - you may need to lie on your back and look up.

You asked: Would you know off hand of that earth turret carries any circuits that are critical to keeping the engine running? Eg anything like the tacho/sensor, that could ground out the coil or go open circuit say after a period of running and getting warm?
Well yes and no - There is a ground for the inst. pack, for its lights and the tacho and this will go to a turret I think on the drivers side. But will / could this affect the engine running? well I should hope the state of the tacho (i.e. funny ground) should not affect the operation of the coil to impact the engine running. To be sure I would need to see the circuit of the inside of the tacho, but I doubt .....

Guess the ign switch (+12v ign feed to the coil) or fuel / carb issues would be more likely.
I recall a hundred years ago my mk1 Escort whilst loaded with 2 young ladies after a party one night, started then stopped - girls left - I couldn't get that car started again and had to return the next day. It started but was a pig to drive home, eventually found the red/yellow wire in the dist. was worn through and shorted to the contact breaker points earth. Yellow - copper looks similar! Vac advance pulled the points and grounded the ignition!

same here...

thanks: I've added the turret cleaning tot he works for Good Friday when i plan to work on the car anyway.

The q re the tacho was just resulting from a reference I saw in this Forum on that point. I thought it an odd comment because creating a ground via the tacho would be a dead short for the coil and there would be a lot heating up after that.....I also suspected the ignition switch and wiring so I made up a switched hotwire from the battery bypassing the ignition switch and the issue recurs so I do not think it can be the ignition switch anymore

I've gone through the ignition system totally and fuel and breathing systems too. Will re-set float height and look at the jets yet again. I cleaned the carb spotlessly throughout.

As to your party escapade, I had similar (one lady only!) in my MG. After she left, the car started and ran perfectly. "They" know, you know. I that case it was the fuel cap not venting.

Back to the ignition though, I notice there is no earth for the distributor plate as there would be in a Lucas unit. I'd like to fit one but there is no convenient place. I get less than an Ohm from the plate to engine earth and chassis earth so perhaps it is not critical.

I thought my spark was weak but after seeing an improved spark demonstrated on a video on youtube whereby you fit another condenser of 33nF across the coil LT terminals (and keep the one in the distributor), I have also seen a better spark. All the other leads, cap, rotor, condenser, points and plugs were replaced. There does not appear to be an induction leak but nevertheless, the plugs show the carb is very lean (even at 2 1/2 turns out) and the engine stops after a period that cold be 10 or 20 or 70 minutes. Very odd.
Any thoughts?
RDS

Ha, like your comments
Sounds like you have forensically bottomed this one out.
Normally the distributer points are earthed via the body of the dist to the engine block (which of course is well earthed for the started motor and alternator, both big/huge amp items).
The 33nF cap will form a kinda tuned circuit with the inductance of the coil primary winding I guess effectively ringing the spark and making it appear to last longer - anyone out there analysed this circuit??
Are you running just plain points? Guess you have replaced them and a fresh condenser with. them (I run Luminition on mine)
Thinking as I type rather than before - sorry, if the 33nF capacitor is in parallel with the condenser inside the dist and it apparently improves the spark, then that would make me suspect that condenser!
Condenser is the very old name for a capacitor and it only seems to linger on in the automobile arena.

So, my experience is ensure that your ignition parts are know to be in good order first including the timing. Then move onto the fuel, both can be equally guilty.

I had a problem with my Exxy last year, just got it back on the road - having spent thousands - out for its first wee drive and my car cut out after 10mins following a blast down the road on the way back home. Turned out to be a tiny 1mm fleck of rubber from the old fuel pipe (everything replaced, filters, electric pump etc) but Weber 34DATR are apparently really susceptible to dirt and this fleck found its way to the sub float chamber right underneath the jets. A blast down the road, big suck of petrol, fleck sucked onto the jet! Engine would idle great but no power.
You live and learn.

Scotty - update on this:

I changed the coil yet again and this time did not tighten the clamp at all, the thought being that I may have crushed the windings slightly.

I did not do a road test though before also cleaning the carb thoroughly again in an ultrasonic bath, and changing the float valve on the carb. the old was a 2.00 valve and it seemed to stick intermittently. The new is a 1.75 valve per the book spec. As a result I do not know exactly and for sure which of the jobs was the effective one, though the float valve was the most likely.

To date the symptoms have not recurred.....but perhaps they will. The installation of an electric pump and new hoses have undoubtedly been of general assistance.

Cheers

RDS