Tuning 1368cc 16V FIRE Turbo (T-Jet) Uno conversion

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Tuning 1368cc 16V FIRE Turbo (T-Jet) Uno conversion

Just like to say I'm very impressed with all of your projects. Show how it should be done.
Thanks man, that is a nice thing to say.

Cool video !
You can edit your videos on youtube and there´s a function that will reduce the shaking too !
;P
Cheers. I meant the sound, as it cuts a bit because of the roll bar transmitting noise of road bumps. I think the video gives the general gist, if not just evidence it goes along! I will do better ones in time.


Anyway, I am back from London after a faultless trip of 2 hours each way. Couldn't be happier with things in general as it already feels like an easy to drive, well behaved, reliable car that also makes silly noises and goes fast. Even quite good on fuel! No speedometer or odometer yet to measure properly yet.

My friend and I got lots of little improvements done on the car, like mounting the pedals and gearstick properly. Even has a nice little T-Jet badge on the grille. Unfortunately, the main task of moving the intermediate shaft further into the gearbox was a failure. There were few options after an exhaustive 5 hour analysis was done. These were:
1) make a new bracket from scratch, not to be undertaken lightly
2) extending the existing shaft
3) adjusting an original bravo/GP/500 intermediate shaft to fit the UT inboard CV

In the end there wasn't time and I didn't have the parts. A factor in this was not marooning me in London by starting something that couldn't be finished! Really needed to have brought a sacrificial part. Oh well.


Here is what the car is looking like now. Quite a few finishing jobs, particularly loose and temporary wiring. Dashboard will take a while to sort in general.

Bowden cable gear change


Bravo dashboard gaffer taped over UT dash, only useful for coolant temp, oil pressure warning and rev counter. What more do you need?!


Engine bay


General look and grille badge
 
I'm using the donor car (Bravo 150) electronics only! It was quicker than the Panda because of what I have learnt from that and also I decided only to make the engine work with it, rather than the self-imposed challenge of integrating all the other electrical devices into it like the Panda. There are still plenty of challenges ahead though, like how to display info through normal gauges, utilising other sensors for the larger hybrid turbo I plan to fit, etc.

Yeah, I vaguely remember you having a problem with speed sensor triggers/lack of hall effect wheel bearings on the Panda?

Is there a blanking plate on that gearbox for a mechanical speedo drive?

Whats the chances of marrying the electronics up with the original UT binacle after you`ve compared resistances etc?

Anyway, I am back from London after a faultless trip of 2 hours each way. Couldn't be happier with things in general as it already feels like an easy to drive, well behaved, reliable car that also makes silly noises and goes fast. Even quite good on fuel! No speedometer or odometer yet to measure properly yet.

My friend and I got lots of little improvements done on the car, like mounting the pedals and gearstick properly. Even has a nice little T-Jet badge on the grille. Unfortunately, the main task of moving the intermediate shaft further into the gearbox was a failure. There were few options after an exhaustive 5 hour analysis was done. These were:
1) make a new bracket from scratch, not to be undertaken lightly
2) extending the existing shaft
3) adjusting an original bravo/GP/500 intermediate shaft to fit the UT inboard CV

In the end there wasn't time and I didn't have the parts. A factor in this was not marooning me in London by starting something that couldn't be finished! Really needed to have brought a sacrificial part. Oh well.


Here is what the car is looking like now. Quite a few finishing jobs, particularly loose and temporary wiring. Dashboard will take a while to sort in general.



I know how nervous I`ve been driving after rebuilds/mods, wondering if I`d missed anything, checking the rear view mirror 100 times for smoke/leaks... I`m sure you were hugely relieved when you rolled up in London!

Looks like the original (if slightly modified) console might fit over the bowden set up! Is the gearstick longer or is it me?

The badge is a nice subtle touch too.

Are you going to leave the original fan where it is or are you going to go for something with a bit more clearance? Could you hear any contact under heavy braking? If you are going to keep it like that it might be an idea to part shroud the back of the rad to get some airflow over the back of the motor, I also had a quick Google just now, the Uno has a similar size rad to the Marea TD, but that has bigger twin fans with a much slimmer profile... should be fit-able.. I`m sure you`ve already thought of things like that though :D

I`m a bit lost when it comes to your intermediate shaft though, have you got any pics?

Sorry for all the questions, I still fully intend to fit a carbed, distributored 1.4 N/A 8v to my grey Uno when I`ve got funds, so I`m trying to absorb as much info from your conversions as possible :)
 
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Yeah, I vaguely remember you having a problem with speed sensor triggers/lack of hall effect wheel bearings on the Panda?3

Is there a blanking plate on that gearbox for a mechanical speedo drive?
Same problems in this car. I have no speedometer at the moment. The more modern versions of the C510 gearbox for FIRE and MultiJet engines do not have any provision for a speed sensor. I plan to use the same separate unit I use on my panda by installing the sensor to point at a driveshaft with a magnet on it. Or just not have a speedo and use satnav instead.

Whats the chances of marrying the electronics up with the original UT binacle after you`ve compared resistances etc?
I plan to use the original dash for everything basically, but it is difficult/impossible to marry up to the bravo electronics. I basically need to sense everything I want to independently. Basically means putting my own water temp sensor in and plugging the Uno loom into the oil pressure switch, rather than the bravo kit, etc. RPM is a challenging one due to earth-triggered coil-per-plug.

Looks like the original (if slightly modified) console might fit over the bowden set up! Is the gearstick longer or is it me?
I think it might do, but I've never had a standard Uno and don't have the part to check. The gearstick starts higher as it is on a platform so it probably is higher than a standard one. Just where I want it. You can always chop a gearstick down! There are lots of ways you can mount this cable change "box", that originally came with mounting legs for fitment to the floor either side of the exhaust tunnel. Mounting it this way would have the stick lower.

Are you going to leave the original fan where it is or are you going to go for something with a bit more clearance? Could you hear any contact under heavy braking? If you are going to keep it like that it might be an idea to part shroud the back of the rad to get some airflow over the back of the motor, I also had a quick Google just now, the Uno has a similar size rad to the Marea TD, but that has bigger twin fans with a much slimmer profile... should be fit-able.. I`m sure you`ve already thought of things like that though :D
I haven't thought about what fits yet. It does potentially need a better/slimmer fan, but don't know how urgent yet as cooling is not a problem and no noises or witness marks from contact. I have pretty much run out of money for quite a while, so I won't be upgrading anything that doesn't need to be for a bit.

I`m a bit lost when it comes to your intermediate shaft though, have you got any pics?
I could take some, although I don't think anyone can help here. Just need a complete fabrication or longer shaft. BTW, this wouldn't be a problem for your install as you wouldn't need this shaft, you can just use one driveshaft per side and a normal FIRE gearbox.

Sorry for all the questions, I still fully intend to fit a carbed, distributored 1.4 N/A 8v to my grey Uno when I`ve got funds, so I`m trying to absorb as much info from your conversions as possible :)
Which engine are you talking about- FIRE 1368cc or SOHC 1372cc?
 
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Same problems in this car. I have no speedometer at the moment. The more modern versions of the C510 gearbox for FIRE and MultiJet engines do not have any provision for a speed sensor. I plan to use the same separate unit I use on my panda by installing the sensor to point at a driveshaft with a magnet on it. Or just not have a speedo and use satnav instead.

I plan to use the original dash for everything basically, but it is difficult/impossible to marry up to the bravo electronics. I basically need to sense everything I want to independently. Basically means putting my own water temp sensor in and plugging the Uno loom into the oil pressure switch, rather than the bravo kit, etc. RPM is a challenging one due to earth-triggered coil-per-plug.

I think it might do, but I've never had a standard Uno and don't have the part to check. The gearstick starts higher as it is on a platform so it probably is higher than a standard one. Just where I want it. You can always chop a gearstick down! There are lots of ways you can mount this cable change "box", that originally came with mounting legs for fitment to the floor either side of the exhaust tunnel. Mounting it this way would have the stick lower.

I haven't thought about what fits yet. It does potentially need a better/slimmer fan, but don't know how urgent yet as cooling is not a problem and no noises or witness marks from contact. I have pretty much run out of money for quite a while, so I won't be upgrading anything that doesn't need to be for a bit.

I could take some, although I don't think anyone can help here. Just need a complete fabrication or longer shaft. BTW, this wouldn't be a problem for your install as you wouldn't need this shaft, you can just use one driveshaft per side and a normal FIRE gearbox.


Which engine are you talking about- FIRE 1368cc or SOHC 1372cc?

I`ve seen specific standalone digital satnav speedo`s on ebay, although you`d have no milometer.. It`d be nice if you could fit compatable Stilo/500 etc speedo & rev counter heads/mechinisms behind the original UT faces in the original pod, I suspect its all on a big circuit board though, so probably not easily possible, plus you`d need to have the digital readout in there somewhere, all very time consuming!

The fan motors I saw on ebay would be perfect, instead of having the long, thin fan motor of the Uno, they are flat, disk type motors, around 1/2 the thickness. You may even be able to mount one of these motors on the Uno shroud looking at it, as theres some clearance between the Uno`s fan motor body & the plastic shroud mounting, which should give you a good inch more clearance, just stick "Fiat Marea td radiator fans" in ebay & you`ll see what I mean. You should be able to pick one motor up for £10-15 from a breaker.

I doubt I could help re: the intermediate shaft, I`m just intreagued! But now I`m really confused! how do you mean I`d use only 1 driveshaft each side? how many have you got! :confused:

I mean the 1368 8v non-turbo lump, I wouldnt waste my time with the 1372, Like you, I much prefer the FIRE. I`ve got a Punto 1.6 Sporting & a Tempra 2.0 twin cam that could donate their engines to my Uno, but I wouldnt want all the extra weight & fabrication, which would virtually be the same amount of work as fitting the 1372.

I want to keep the dizzy & carb for several reasons, 1, they are more reliable than the later systems, 2, I wouldnt have to do the associated wiring & integration of electronics & 3, it would still look virtually standard.

I`ve even been thinking about getting the 1.4 block/crank/sump & putting a big valve 1108 Uno head on it, theres 34 & 36 `TL` series carbs that physically looks like a 32TLF (I think they were PSA, GM & VW fit). I`d like to get one of them (ideally the 36 TLC or TLP) with the upper inlet manifold spliced from whichever donor car onto the Uno enlarged & gasflowed lower inlet manifold or flange plate.

I had the same idea`s as you when the 1.4 FIRE engine came out, the difference is, you`ve now done the practical & I`m still on the theories! :D
 
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Will certainly look into the fan situation. The Marea fans look generally large. Certainly couldn't use as they are as there is even less clearance on the other side where the turbo and output pipe are. Take your point that they could be chopped up and used some how.

About the 1368cc 8v, I have a sub-10k complete example. Will PM.


Testing updates
I put the TMC box in last night. Pretty big difference in power of course. Went for a quick drive today and can confirm that you can change the attitude of an accidental slide with the throttle. Much keener to boost to around 16PSI and stay there. Now feels very quick on a road. I am still in "CITY" mode. Would be nice to get into sport mode as I am potentially losing 20lbft of torque or something! I know how to wire this, but not sure if the computer will let me in light of lack of other complimenting ECUs- we shall see.

Two small problems. Firstly, the clutch master is leaking out the front so needs replacing. It is a small leak, but a leak nonetheless.

More difficult to fix potentially is the throttle seems to remain open a little when the gas pedal is fully up! Only happens when caning it. Particularly noticeable between gears. You may have noticed what sounds like a clumsy shift once or twice in the video above. I thought it was too, but it is just what sometimes happens, occasionally quite seriously. Another example of it is when you lift off from full throttle, car noticeably stops accelerating, but almost maintains speed or loses speed very slowly with no pedal input. After a few seconds it just stops doing it. Any ideas anyone?
 
Almost sounds like a vacuum leak of a high magnitude when lifting of the throttle?

One thing I've been looking into recently is the EVAP (cahrcoal cannister). Is this isntalled and controlled by the ECU?



Regarding Speedo...sorry, I haven't read it all, but are you looking for a manual speed output, but the gearbox doesn't support it? Is this the bell housing or the actual shaft in the box? Can you not just swap one or either to install a speed output?

Kristian
 
Almost sounds like a vacuum leak of a high magnitude when lifting of the throttle?

One thing I've been looking into recently is the EVAP (cahrcoal cannister). Is this isntalled and controlled by the ECU?
Agree it is like a manifold leak. Does seem it only does when caning it though. Drove for hours on weekend normally and didn't notice the issue. More testing required. I have removed and disregarded the vapour recovery solenoid and associated pipes. Do you believe this is an issue in this regard?

Regarding Speedo...sorry, I haven't read it all, but are you looking for a manual speed output, but the gearbox doesn't support it? Is this the bell housing or the actual shaft in the box? Can you not just swap one or either to install a speed output?
There is no provision for a speed sensor or anything else in the casting. All cars using these boxes now use wheel sensors and ABS ECU to determine speed. T-Jet bellhousing doesn't even have a hole for a clutch lever as it uses a concentric clutch cylinder slave!
 
Agree it is like a manifold leak. Does seem it only does when caning it though. Drove for hours on weekend normally and didn't notice the issue. More testing required. I have removed and disregarded the vapour recovery solenoid and associated pipes. Do you believe this is an issue in this regard?


No, if you have removed these components, then it's not an issue. I'd be inclined to think for whatever reason the ECU is holding the FBW throttle open longer than inclined. Do you still ahve an active ODB2 port to monitor certain sensors? Is the EML on due to the current setup?

There is no provision for a speed sensor or anything else in the casting. All cars using these boxes now use wheel sensors and ABS ECU to determine speed. T-Jet bellhousing doesn't even have a hole for a clutch lever as it uses a concentric clutch cylinder slave!

If you were to swap the belhouseing for an older model though? I don't think fitting the plastic cog to the shaft is a problem. I'd say drill a hole to fit the speed spensor, but due to swarf, and having to open the box, you'd have to strip it anyway.

Still, if you had a workaround on the panda, I'm sure this is a simple workaround :)
 
Got OBD2 port. This is my next port of call tomorrow. The light isn't on because of the way I have wired the dash, but it certainly would be! There will be lots of errors, mostly network related due to can't find most ECUs of course.

Can't use older gearbox bellhousing, the one I'm using is the only FIRE-fitting C510 gearbox bellhousing there is. There is a choice of one! Panda used more common C514 gearbox for which there were a lot of options. Not worried about doing a bracket holding a hall effect sensor on the diff housing pointing at drive shaft. Will work.
 
Had FIATecuScan on it today and no errors are showing other than the usual 5:
no ABS ECU
evap solenoid error
fuel level sender error
brake pedal switch error
fan relay error

Found out that the donor car was a 150 Dynamic, not Sport. Dials give it away upon reflection and the fact that when I wired in the "CITY" functionality, it turned on and off. This means there is no "sport mode", which is a good thing to not have to figure out as there is no wiring documentation for it, despite what I thought I had seen. Must mean I have full beans all the time.

The lingering rev problem was very prevalent tonight on my little test drive. I unplugged and stopped up the boost gauge pipe in case it was this, but no effect. I have now noticed that when sat idling, a tweak of the pedal can mean the idle then settles at a little over 1000RPM instead of the usual 750RPM. On the occasion I noticed it on my drive at some lights I was unable to persuade it down until I pulled off and drove a bit and it magically restored itself between 2nd and 3rd gears.

It is almost as if the throttle butterfly gets stuck. I have a spare complete inlet setup in the garage, so could try swapping the parts if I have to. Current plan is to use FIATecuScan to log the throttle pedal and butterfly data. I have already tried this a minute ago outside the house idling and got it to repeat the higher idle and I could see the 1% more open butterfly reflected in the data. It does therefore suggest the ECU is just opening the throttle as opposed to a vacuum leak. More testing to do on Sunday.
 
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Logging is the way to go.

Throttle angle, accel input, and manifold pressure will be the most important to get. Sadly logging off OBD ports is not that fast and the updates can be a bit hard to read. If you can post up the result either in graph form or some spreadsheet i'm sure it'll be usefull.

Try and log when at idle and then take it on a blast :)

I'd hold of the manifold change for now until thats done as if a manifold swap did work, it'd still be good to know which part was at fault.

Do you have any schematics?


evap solenoid error
fuel level sender error
brake pedal switch error
fan relay error


These should all be very simple to fix I'd imagine :) ABS would take a little more work.

EG. EVAP solenoid is about 15ohm resistance (at least the ones I have played with), and is PWM modulated. Even drive at 12V DC with NO PWM (worst case scenario) it only draws about 600mA, so a 10W 15ohm resistor should get rid of that error for you, by just fitting it between the two wires. :)
 
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Cheers for the useful info Kritip. I have to say that I am not in a hurry to clear the errors unless they directly affect the performance as I have to plug in the laptop to find errors whichever way. I also think the ABS ECU would be impossible to fix save putting one in. with dummy wheel sensors and all.

Haven't got round to logging since I have a more pressing issue of poor fuel delivery in some circumstances. There is never a problem until I have been driving for 10 minutes. At this point I here an annoying buzzing coming from one of the pumps. The unit and the outlet pipe of which really vibrates pretty hard as though it is struggling a bit. If I floor it in these conditions, I occasionally get a very bad lean out condition and power stops like the brakes are on. The ECUs deal with it very well to save my blushes with misfires, etc. If I stop the car for a bit, I can hear fuel glugging through the system into the tank. Upon restarting, the pump will sound good again and I will have power for a few more minutes until the process starts again.

Seems like something has to build up over time, like air or something. It's a pretty serious issue for my holiday/trackday next Monday, so needs a solution. Please post any suggestions guys.

My fuel system as I see it
Tank -> filter -> pump (on with ignition) -> middle pipe on swirl pot -> bottom pipe on swirl pot to big pump (ECU controlled) -> filter in engine bay -> injector rail -> regulator -> top of swirl pot with Tee off to top of tank too
 
Not that i can help to much as its been a long time since i have played with swirl pots, but it does sound like you are getting cavitation.

Cavitation sounds like this...


I was getting this sound out of my swirl pot setup in my gtir at a long track day where it was running to low on fuel near the end of the day, which caused a few missfires.

Once i filled the car back up and gave the main feed pump a good shake with the car running to get the air out the noise went away and every thing seemed fine after that.

I have also read that some people seem to find there fuel temps going up when using a return to swirl pot from rail setup with a big fuel pump.
Mostly at idle and when driving at low speeds due to the fuel being returned back to the swirl pot after getting heated up by the fuel pumps and by the sudden drop in pressure after the fpr causing the fuel to heat up?
Made worse by bigger fuel pumps that can flow more apparently.

So it also could of possibly been the fuel getting to hot aswell that caused the cavitation,where there was not much fuel in the system until i filled up.
That and maybe where the pump was also getting a bit warm from the heat of the floor from the exhaust running under it,god know lol.

What main feed pump are you using,and is the pump gravity feed off the pot?

What sort of fitting is on the main pump from the pot,its not restricting it in any way?

Is you swirl pot getting hot?

Also your setup sounds like its missing a port on the swirl pot compaired to mine.
Mine is
Bottom fitting to main feed pump then to rail.
Next fitting up is feed to fill the pot from lift pump in the tank
Next fitting up is return from fuel rail to pot.
Top fitting is return from pot to tank.

Maybe its the top fitting on your pot depending how you have it t-ed,as surely the main pump is trying to fight the lift pump from the tank, if the main pump is returning to the top of the pot and the lift pump is also trying to fill the pot and return to the tank all off the top fitting it must be pressurising the pot?
Depends how its t-ed i surpose.

heres how mines plumbed in...
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m114/gtirx2/swirl.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m114/gtirx2/P1010894.jpg


Intresting project your have going on btw(y)
 
Right, well I was going to post a video of the noise the pump makes, but no need since it is the same as the one above. Cavitation it is then.

My swirl pot only has 3 pipes, which does seem to be less than usual. The Tee is between the top pipe, the tank return and the return from rail. Seems like an OK idea to me. If the swirl pot is full, the fuel will go to the tank. Temps could be a problem. The pumps and pot are no-where near anything radiating heat, yet the swirl pot was noticeably warm when I checked it last, which I thought was odd. I know that fuel creates crazy vapour pressures when warmed, so it is all adding up. I have also noticed that if you keep caning it, the problem is kept at bay. The worst thing is to trundle along for a bit and then require a blast. This reinforces the idea of fuel flowing around rather quickly, less quickly when more is being used.

Question is, how do I fix it? Return from rail straight into tank, with separate line from swirl pot overflow to tank? Basically, forget the T-piece idea?
 
More procrastination:

Is the pump just too much perhaps? The previous Lampredi engine just required so much more fuel than the T-jet does, even at full chat. The car was also developed as a racing car, so slower use was probably not considered much. I don't know what the pumps actually are, they are both the usual canister types. I presume the low pressure one is indeed a carb type low pressure pump, but don't know. I would need to remove them to work out what they are and what the specs are.

Also, the car runs fine without the low pressure pump running at all, which i can switch off at the dash. In fact it seems to make no difference to performance or to the issue at hand, even over a whole journey!
 
Not to sure what to surgest tbh mate,but if possible i would try and change the top fitting arangement you have atm.

I think most people would recommend the return from rail to pot like my setup as this will always insure that the pot is full at all times which is what you want really.

But then like i mention about the fuel temps i have only read about this and dont now if this is your problem or not.

In the cases i have read about riseing fuel temps being a problem people have surgested that the return from rail be plumb back into the main tank rather than the pot.

Its all a bit controversel as some do it one way and others do it the other way.

The main ones i have read that are having real trouble with fuel temp problems is when people are running a 3 pump setup,ie 1 lift pump and then 2 big pumps of the pot to the rail.

This dont mean it cant happen with a big single pump off the pot though,depends on the size of the pump i surpose.

I am also surprised that you can still run the car with only the pump of the pot running and the in tank pump switched off.

How big is the swirl pot,maybe you are not running it long enough just on the single pump on its own to fully empty the pot, where it is also returning back to the pot from the rail aswell.

If not that means your main pump is also sucking up through the stopped in tank pump which i think would be pretty hard to do i would of though?

I am still not sure about your top fitting though,in theory it should work but it does sound like it could be a bit of a bottle neck, with the main pump pushing the fuel through the rail trying then trying to come back to the pot top fitting,while the intank pump is trying to pump and fill the pot and return to the tank through the top fitting aswell meeting with the fuel coming back from the rail at the T then going back to the tank.

Its was the vibrating outlet pipe of the pump and the glugging sound you mention that makes it sound suspect.
Almost like the main pump is fighting the in tank pump at this top fitting, and when you stop the car the glugging is the fuel finally getting back to the tank down the T once all the pressures drop if you know what i mean?

The mlr (lancerregister) and gtr forums are good places to find out about swirl pot setups.
 
Not to sure what to surgest tbh mate,but if possible i would try and change the top fitting arangement you have atm.

I think most people would recommend the return from rail to pot like my setup as this will always insure that the pot is full at all times which is what you want really.
The return does go to the swirl pot top pipe, with a T to the tank return, but I do see how this could cause a fight with flow out of the pot.

If not that means your main pump is also sucking up through the stopped in tank pump which i think would be pretty hard to do i would of though?
Sounds crazy, but it does. I drove half way to London like this. Having the lift pump on literally makes no difference to performance, which is very odd.

Its was the vibrating outlet pipe of the pump and the glugging sound you mention that makes it sound suspect.
Almost like the main pump is fighting the in tank pump at this top fitting, and when you stop the car the glugging is the fuel finally getting back to the tank down the T once all the pressures drop if you know what i mean?
I do know what you mean and I agree it sounds like the fuel is released through the return after switch-off, but it can't be fighting with the second pump as it does it whether that is on or off!

The mlr (lancerregister) and gtr forums are good places to find out about swirl pot setups.
Thanks for your help and a pointer to more. I have read a lot of theory today and will just have to experiment. Haven't found any setups that have only 3 pipes on swirl pots though, although a T off the top one does do a similar job, which must have been the thinking. This seems to be the place to start tinkering with though.

I put an old fuel cap on that has a hole drilled in it to see if I had a simple venting problem, but cavitation came on at about 10-15 mins as usual. Before this time everything sounds great and works great. It is always the same; I do feel it is fuel temps then at this point. The swirl pot was almost hot after a blast tonight.

In other news
Fitted Yellowstuff pads in about 15 minutes and then a new clutch master cylinder which is nearly an impossible job. Unbelievably fiddly and for me has to be done upside down with my feet touching the roof because of the roll-cage bars. Took 3 hours. :mad:
 
Did a diagram of my setup. It's the orange bit of pipe that is in question. Pumps, filter and tanks are represented at relative heights.
 

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