Hello guys!
Actually it's my first post on this forum, but I've read almost about all the projects you have carried out...

I own mk1 fiat uno 45 fire, already for 7 years now, it was my first car.
Initially I was thinking to drop in Coupe 4 cylinder turbo engine.
I was already buying a donor Coupe when I had an accident with my second car (BMW e36, M44B19 engine, with LSD).
Therefore I came up with a new idea to swap the engine, drivetrain and suspension from e36 to uno, converting it to RWD. Actually only uno's outside look won't be changed.
I need this car mainly for track days, so handling is the priority No1 (which is very hardly achievable with the coupe engine in the front it). And I hope you agree that a rwd car equipped with lsd is much more fun to drive than a heavy nose fwd.
I'm nearly aware of the work that has to be carried out and I'll be doing 99% of it myself.
Planning to start in spring.

Meanwhile posting here to hear your opinion. Any advices and inputs will be more than welcome!
Has anybody done UNO rwd conversion before? ..was not able to find any related info yet.

Cheers,
Levan


P.S. I already know about an existing opinion regarding an Italian car without a soul (Fiat with BMW internals in our case), but I stick to the idea that "Passion has neither brands nor models!" (c) Enzo.
Please, keep this in mind while posting

This Saturday on the track...

It sounds like a great idea and I'll be watching intently to see how it all takes shape

It will be great ones finished i reckon. good luck on the build!
Presume you'll be using BMW enigne and box, is it going to fit!

I'm pretty sure there was a V8 engined Uno grass track racer on Ebay earlier this year. It was definitely rear wheel drive but may have been mid engined.

If you use the Beemer E36 running gear aren't you going to run into major problems in that the Beemer is much wider than a Uno? Axles and subframes definitely won't fit without major surgery. And also, isn't the Beemer a straight six? There's no way you'd get that under the Uno bonnet without it coming into the cabin.

Anything is possible with enough time, money and skill. There exists a car called the 'Yntegrale', which is a Lancia Y10 married to a Lancia Delta Integrale chassis and running gear. I think the whole project cost as much as a 2 bedroom terraced house and took a huge amount of work, time and fabrication.

The only other option would be to somehow marry the Uno body to the BMW floorpan, but considering the differences in size I can't see how you'd make it work without cutting and extending the Uno body. Plus you'd end up with a car that drove like BMW but looked like a deformed Uno.

Sorry, but I can't see this being a feasible project unless you have access to a very skilled workshop and lots of money.

pretty sure the bmw engine is a 4 cylinder 1.8?

either way i'm wondering if there'll be enough room for the engine as they're longitudinal... a transverse set up would be more likely a more feasible solution, but even that would require extensive work, you'd probably have to fabricate a metal tube frame for the rear end to support the extra weight and make up for the loss of strength in the monocoque, as you will certainly need to chop away at it.

maddogmorg said:

pretty sure the bmw engine is a 4 cylinder 1.8?

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You are correct, it is indeed a 4 cylinder according to Wikipedia:

318is 1,895 cc (1.895 L; 115.6 cu in) 4cyl DOHC 16V Petrol 140 PS (103 kW; 138 hp) @6000 rpm 180 N·m (130 lb·ft) @4300 rpm (M44B19 Engine) (0-100 km/h,s = 10.2[/B] Top Speed = 213 km/h (132 mph) 1996–1998

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_E36[/ame]

Note the 0 - 60mph time (0 - 100 km/h) is only 10.2 seconds and the power output is 140PS. That's hardly road burning material, especially when a well sorted Uno Turbo can do sub 7 seconds 0 to 60mph and push out over 150 bhp with few mods. Plus it will still handle! As a result I really can't see the point of a BMW E36 engined Uno...

either way i'm wondering if there'll be enough room for the engine as they're longitudinal... a transverse set up would be more likely a more feasible solution

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anyway a transverse set up wont be possible, because the bmw transmission will be kept.

If you use the Beemer E36 running gear aren't you going to run into major problems in that the Beemer is much wider than a Uno? Axles and subframes definitely won't fit without major surgery. And also, isn't the Beemer a straight six? There's no way you'd get that under the Uno bonnet without it coming into the cabin.

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beemer is 150mm wider, that's +7cm on each side. So just arches will be widen like on m3 gtr..
and you are right, a major surgery will be needed to fit everything in place.

As you already mentioned the engine is I4 (1.9liter, 140bhp). But anyway I'll be trying to put it as close to the car center as possible, even if it means entering the cabin.

Note the 0 - 60mph time (0 - 100 km/h) is only 10.2 seconds and the power output is 140PS. That's hardly road burning material, especially when a well sorted Uno Turbo can do sub 7 seconds 0 to 60mph and push out over 150 bhp with few mods. Plus it will still handle! As a result I really can't see the point of a BMW E36 engined Uno...

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first let's compare stock variants:
Uno turbo, 940kg, 114hp - that's 9.2kg/hp, 8.4sec
E36, 1350kg, 140hp - 9.6kg/hp, 10.2sec (actually 8.9sec on my e36)
Uno 45 with E36 internals, I have calculated a max weight of 950kg, 140hp - 6.8kg/hp, should be around 7.5sec
(still better than a tsock UT)

Now tuned variants:
As you mentioned Uno turbo 940kg, 150hp - 6.3kg/hp, sub 7 sec.
With M44 engine circa 220hp are achievable, still 950kg - 4.3kg/hp, in the range of 4.7 sec. and somthing like 13s over a quarter mile.

Hope you see the difference
But one again, handling for me is much more 'important than acceleration.

Plus:
-An e36 with a well tuned suspension handles much better than an Uno.
-NA engine power is much more predictable than the turbocharged one.
-I prefer having an RWD than FWD car.
-I do not consider Uno Turbo swap because in this case I will need to buy and import a donor car.
-It's much more interesting doing a thing no one has done before, than doing a common Uno Turbo swap.

No problems regarding tools and skills, I'll be doing everything myself. A huge problem - TIME!

That's all I can say at the given moment.
Most probably I will come back to you in February/March with certain decisions and specified details regarding the project.

Cheers

R'ace'R said:

anyway a transverse set up wont be possible, because the bmw transmission will be kept.

beemer is 150mm wider, that's +7cm on each side. So just arches will be widen like on m3 gtr..
and you are right, a major surgery will be needed to fit everything in place.

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Yes, but is the engine bay also as wide as the BMW's? It definitely won't be long enough unless you have the engine forward of the front axle, which you won't be doing as that will ruin the handling. To keep the Beemer engine and 'box you WILL have to cut into the firewall and enter the cab. Also bear in mind that the Uno has no transmission tunnel, which you will need if you are converting to rear wheel drive.

R'ace'R said:

As you already mentioned the engine is I4 (1.9liter, 140bhp). But anyway I'll be trying to put it as close to the car center as possible, even if it means entering the cabin.

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It will enter the cabin if you want to keep the engine towards the centre of the car (forward of the front axle). There isn't enough room under the bonnet otherwise.

R'ace'R said:

first let's compare stock variants:
Uno turbo, 940kg, 114hp - that's 9.2kg/hp, 8.4sec
E36, 1350kg, 140hp - 9.6kg/hp, 10.2sec (actually 8.9sec on my e36)
Uno 45 with E36 internals, I have calculated a max weight of 950kg, 140hp - 6.8kg/hp, should be around 7.5sec
(still better than a tsock UT)

Now tuned variants:
As you mentioned Uno turbo 940kg, 150hp - 6.3kg/hp, sub 7 sec.
With M44 engine circa 220hp are achievable, still 950kg - 4.3kg/hp, in the range of 4.7 sec. and somthing like 13s over a quarter mile.

Hope you see the difference
But one again, handling for me is much more 'important than acceleration.

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First of all, have you included the extra weight from the rear BMW axle, driveshafts and propshaft? Also, though the 1.4 Uno T engine is part iron and part alloy (the gearbox housings are all alloy), I suspect it would be lighter than the 1.8 BMW engine and gearbox being a smaller capacity. As a result the BMW engine, box, axle and suspension in a Uno is likely to weigh more than an extra 10kg over the standard Uno turbo.

Secondly, your estimate of 4.7 secs 0 - 100kph I think is WAY optimistic. There are Uno turbos with over 200bhp that can't do that. Even the addition of rwd for better traction I still doubt you will get those kind of times.

Regarding the handling, you are going to be drastically modifying the BMW running gear to fit the Uno, which will also affect the suspension geometry. How will you know these geometry changes will still give good handling? Also, a Uno can be made to handle well with the right mods, particularly as the standard suspension was too much of a compromise. It doesn't take much suspension work to make the standard Uno quite a track weapon.

R'ace'R said:

Plus:
-An e36 with a well tuned suspension handles much better than an Uno.
-NA engine power is much more predictable than the turbocharged one.
-I prefer having an RWD than FWD car.
-I do not consider Uno Turbo swap because in this case I will need to buy and import a donor car.
-It's much more interesting doing a thing no one has done before, than doing a common Uno Turbo swap.

No problems regarding tools and skills, I'll be doing everything myself. A huge problem - TIME!.

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Put it this way, I love seeing modified cars that buck the trend and that are unique. And though I agree that a NA engine is more controllable than a turbo a lot depends on how well the turbo engine has been set up. I'm just not convinced that such a heavily modified Uno with BMW running gear is going to be that much better on a track than a well sorted Uno. But I would LOVE to be proved wrong!

I would add, that if you want a high powered, lightweight, rwd drive Uno track weapon then maybe going for a mid mounted bike engine conversion would be a better idea? Would require far less work and give excellent performance results, as well as the light weight being a big benefit handling wise

R'ace'R said:

That's all I can say at the given moment.
Most probably I will come back to you in February/March with certain decisions and specified details regarding the project.

Cheers

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I wish you luck, and though I'm still not convinced I hope you can come back and disprove all my doubts

Good luck!

1986Uno45S said:

I would add, that if you want a high powered, lightweight, rwd drive Uno track weapon then maybe going for a mid mounted bike engine conversion would be a better idea? Would require far less work and give excellent performance results, as well as the light weight being a big benefit handling wise

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I have thought about this, but prefer to start with what I already have - Uno and Beemer..

I agree with almost all the points you have stated.. and I know my estimations are too much realistic..

But the main thing is I like the idea of this conversion!
Let's see...

Theres been a RWD Panda made using a Rover V8, frankly anythings possible. I think he used a Jaguar IRS!

If I was going to do it, I`d look into using an old RWD & rear transaxle Alfa, like a 75, Gulietta, 90, GTV etc with the 4 cylinder engine, that way your keeping it all Italian with the added benefit of having near perfect weight distribution (the V6 is lovely, but too heavy).

If your insistant on going with the BMW engine, I`d look at using a Sierra rear axle, including the rear section of floorpan with all the axle & shock mounts & the transmission tunnel.

You`ll have to re-fabricate chassis rails, ideally including a roll cage to keep it all rigid.

a73uk said:

(the V6 is lovely, but too heavy).

If your insistant on going with the BMW engine, I`d look at using a Sierra rear axle, including the rear section of floorpan with all the axle & shock mounts & the transmission tunnel.

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Everything you mentioned will come from BMW. The engine is Inline 4 cylinder (M44).

You`ll have to re-fabricate chassis rails, ideally including a roll cage to keep it all rigid.

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That's right!

Thanks for the input

Hi,

Can i just say what a great project - from a 'project' point of view you have the recipe for a very busy time, with as many little challenges (and plenty of big ones!) to overcome as you could possibly want, and all the more rewarding it will be for it!

I do however agree hugely with 1986uno45s on a few points - some are not necessarily a bad thing, but factors to consider no less.

Firstly, on the issue of weight: If for example a mk2 ut weighs 925kg, and assuming the engine and box of the BMW weigh a 'bit more', you're looking at a bare minimum of 1100kg in my mind - hell a punto gt weighs 1000kg! You will be welding in a cage no doubt (?) and this will certainly involve major reinforcing of the rear floor plan not to mention the work to the bulk head and run for the prop shaft. I'd guesstimate the additional weight of the rear subframe and propshaft to be getting on for 50kg alone. Remember an uno 45 doesn't even have an anti roll bar, and has tiny hubs, discs and calipers.....

I would, as you suggest you're going to already chop into the bulkhead and position the engine where you want it.

Without looking i cant picture the rear suspension of an e36, but if you add adjustable arms with rose joints you should be able to get it setup nicely with lazer tracking - in the grand scheme of things thats nothing to worry about.

You'll need to get the rotating parts balanced after any chopping/shortening of course.

If i were attacking a build of this scale i'd strip the uno shell first, cut the floor plan out entirely, and make a sizable hole in the bulkhead. You will no doubt find it best to brace her in someway before attempting to dummy fit the running gear form the beemer inside. I'd use box section on the floor and around the rear subframe area, and finish it in such a way that it could take a tubular roll cage of 'normal' guise.

There wont be much uno left, but if complimented nicely with some expensive coilovers, polybushes (etc) you could end up with a real weapon, albeit in standard trim a slightly sluggish one in a straight line.

OR fit IRS to the rear of the uno, make a mental custom rollcage that links the turrets (front and back) and fit muts nuts coilovers, 4 pots etc- lightly mod the engine (so not laggy) and have a truly quick uno that is 'really fast for a FWD 1.3', not 'average' for a 1.8 RWD hugly-time-consuming-conversion.

Tom

Hi Tom!

I agree with you in each and every word.. actually time is the only problem that i have, and this project would be very time consuming as you mentioned...
definitely decided to commence next year.
I also agree with you regarding the weight, but still hope to keep it under (or at least somewhere around) 1000kg.
at the first stage will be trying to fit everything in place and run the engine as it is... And next thinking to install Dowing Atalanta Supercharger (that's 220+hp)... that will certainly eliminate any trace of sluggishness

Thanks!

Levan

R'ace'R said:

Hi Tom!

I agree with you in each and every word.. actually time is the only problem that i have, and this project would be very time consuming as you mentioned...
definitely decided to commence next year.
I also agree with you regarding the weight, but still hope to keep it under (or at least somewhere around) 1000kg.
at the first stage will be trying to fit everything in place and run the engine as it is... And next thinking to install Dowing Atalanta Supercharger (that's 220+hp)... that will certainly eliminate any trace of sluggishness

Thanks!

Levan

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Hi Levan,

We wont dwell on the weight issue though cos i love your optimism!

How much is the supercharger conversion?

Time is every mans enemy - look at my uno, i took that off the road 5 years ago and that where she's been since (well i've moved 3 times but...) - other things in life take priority.

If you do go down the route of cutting the floor plan out and use 1" box for example you've a perfect opportunity to make a flat bottom too..

Pics, pics and more pics when you start it please!

Tom

Tom, the supercharger should be 2500GBP including shipping.
By the way I have a Mazda Millenia supercharger in my garage, it has the same shape. So I may also think of doing custom mounts myself

Levan

P.S. what are the advantages of making a flat bottom? Weight?

R'ace'R said:

Tom, the supercharger should be 2500GBP including shipping.
By the way I have a Mazda Millenia supercharger in my garage, it has the same shape. So I may also think of doing custom mounts myself

Levan

P.S. what are the advantages of making a flat bottom? Weight?

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Hi,

2500 + what you could sell the beemer for... its not turning out to be a cheap project, but i know you want a BMW engined uno with supercharger!!

Just playing devils advocate for a moment, isn't the (or one of them rather) straight six 'the' silky smooth engine BMW are renown for, and thus going to all that hassle to have one of their 4 pots a shame. Why not, for 2500k find an E46 M3 engine? You could stick the M3 badge on the back then

Flat bottom - aero dynamics - @120 odd miles an hour your, mine and the guys next door car is producing lift! Stick a flat bum on her and lower it (not sit it on the bump stops - please assume i'm using your customising here to effect) and you'd get 'ground effect'. I dont know a huge amount on the subject (erm less than that actually), but i know it would handle much better at high speed, and still increase grip at every day speeds.

Tom

Hi Tom!

Aerodynamics... sounds interesting Will certenly look into this subject later on... how are usually exaust pipe, transmission and drive shaft positioned in that case?

M3... yah I know this story, I could even buy an M3 for those money I plan to spend on the project
4 vs 6 ... the only advantage of straight 6 is power.. disadvantages - weight, size, higher positioning in the engine bay..
+ 4 cyl engine will be much easier to handle and fit...

I think M powered uno will be good only for drag racing..

Levan

the mk1 kid said:

Flat bottom - aero dynamics - @120 odd miles an hour your, mine and the guys next door car is producing lift! Stick a flat bum on her and lower it (not sit it on the bump stops - please assume i'm using your customising here to effect) and you'd get 'ground effect'. I dont know a huge amount on the subject (erm less than that actually), but i know it would handle much better at high speed, and still increase grip at every day speeds.

Tom

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I admit to being no aerodynamist but I have a question. Would a flat bottom create the low air pressure under a car needed to get ground effect? The reason why I ask is; F1 cars needed channels and full length skirts (or a bloody great big fan) to get ground effect by creating venturis. The FIA stipulated a flat bottom when ground effects were banned. That's how rear diffusers came into being.

Mental project BTW. Best of luck with it.

chaos said:

I admit to being no aerodynamist

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Nor am I.

But more air goes over the top of the car, and it goes more slowly while the air underneath rushes past. Doesn't that cause downward pressure, like an upside down wing that causes lift. Racing cars also have wings to help with the downforce.

The dams at the front are so close to the ground to stop much going underneath at all.