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Old 30-06-2009   #1
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South Africa 
Uno Fire 1100 idling slow to normalize.

Hey folks!

I have a 1994 Fiat Uno 1100 Fire (1108cc I thinks), was assembled here in South Africa by Nissan. The carburettor resembles the Weber 32 TFL as featured in the supplement section of the Haynes manual (page 13.62). On the side of the carb it says 27 TFL 251.

I just got some starting troubles all sorted out and some maintenance out of the way and was hoping that perhaps someone out here could help me out with a diagnostic of a problem I have with the idling.

It has been doing this since I got it and I just cant seem to figure out why. The symptoms are simple. When I rev or accelerate and take my foot of the accelerator, it is as if the idling takes longer than what it should to return to normal idle speed (about 3 to 4 seconds)...in other word I can rev it slightly and instead of going Woom-Woom! It’l go woo-oooooom kind of slightly continuing to rev on its own a bit. I have had someone sit in the car to pulse the accelerator and watched what the cable and throttle lever does – thought it might get stuck or something, but no, when the pedal is released, the cable relaxes and the throttle lever instantly swings back to rest on the idling screw, yet at this time, the idling is still slowly declining and is not instant like with other cars I have had.

When I step down on the accelerator, it responds instantly but when I take my foot off of the accelerator, it takes a bit of time to come down to normal.

This is kind of annoying and even when changing gears, I can hear that the revs are still high when I change although my foot is off from the accelerator pedal. It takes about 3 to 4 seconds to slowly decrease all the way to idle speed.

The timing is set to 10 degrees BTDC as per Haynes manual and I have even fiddled with the mixture screw to no avail. Come to think of it, on page 13.13 Haynes manual, there are 3 different timing settings depending on what distributor it has, currently mine is set to 10 degrees, could this possibly be wrong, how do I identify my distributor?

My idle screw is currently set to its max, i.e. screwing it out more will not make the car idle slower as the throttle lever does not move further.

Is there someone out there who knows why this is happening and who could point me into the right direction to solve the symptoms. The mechanics down here, well, let’s just say that calling them sharks would be closer to a compliment, it really is bad and I have been taken on some very expensive “rides” with them lately.

Warm regards.
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Last edited by DigitalNomad; 30-06-2009 at 13:06. Reason: Spelling :(
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Old 30-06-2009   #2
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Re: Uno Fire 1100 idling slow to normalize.

The 27 TFL (or TLF) carb doesnt seem to exist!

The Fiat 500 uses a 26mm carb, the 704cc 126 uses a 30mm, so trying to make a 1108 run with something that small is going to be rediculously restrictive.

You really need to find the proper 32 TLF & check you have the right inlet manifold on there too.

They only made the TLF with a 32mm choke & they were fitted on some of the small VW`s & Vauxhall/Opels, so you should be able to find one. The other make ones have alot of detail differences, so you will probably have to do some of modifying.

Quote Originally Posted by DigitalNomad View Post
Hey folks!

I have a 1994 Fiat Uno 1100 Fire (1108cc I thinks), was assembled here in South Africa by Nissan. The carburettor resembles the Weber 32 TFL as featured in the supplement section of the Haynes manual (page 13.62). On the side of the carb it says 27 TFL 251.

I just got some starting troubles all sorted out and some maintenance out of the way and was hoping that perhaps someone out here could help me out with a diagnostic of a problem I have with the idling.

It has been doing this since I got it and I just cant seem to figure out why. The symptoms are simple. When I rev or accelerate and take my foot of the accelerator, it is as if the idling takes longer than what it should to return to normal idle speed (about 3 to 4 seconds)...in other word I can rev it slightly and instead of going Woom-Woom! It’l go woo-oooooom kind of slightly continuing to rev on its own a bit. I have had someone sit in the car to pulse the accelerator and watched what the cable and throttle lever does – thought it might get stuck or something, but no, when the pedal is released, the cable relaxes and the throttle lever instantly swings back to rest on the idling screw, yet at this time, the idling is still slowly declining and is not instant like with other cars I have had.

When I step down on the accelerator, it responds instantly but when I take my foot off of the accelerator, it takes a bit of time to come down to normal.

This is kind of annoying and even when changing gears, I can hear that the revs are still high when I change although my foot is off from the accelerator pedal. It takes about 3 to 4 seconds to slowly decrease all the way to idle speed.

The timing is set to 10 degrees BTDC as per Haynes manual and I have even fiddled with the mixture screw to no avail. Come to think of it, on page 13.13 Haynes manual, there are 3 different timing settings depending on what distributor it has, currently mine is set to 10 degrees, could this possibly be wrong, how do I identify my distributor?

My idle screw is currently set to its max, i.e. screwing it out more will not make the car idle slower as the throttle lever does not move further.

Is there someone out there who knows why this is happening and who could point me into the right direction to solve the symptoms. The mechanics down here, well, let’s just say that calling them sharks would be closer to a compliment, it really is bad and I have been taken on some very expensive “rides” with them lately.

Warm regards.
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Last edited by a73uk; 30-06-2009 at 18:57.
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Old 30-06-2009   #3
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Re: Uno Fire 1100 idling slow to normalize.

Can you take a picture of engine bay and carb?
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Old 01-07-2009   #4
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Re: Uno Fire 1100 idling slow to normalize.

Thanks guys, will try to take some clear pics for you and upload them during the day.

Could one of you please confirm the correct ignition timing setting for me please.

Kind regards.
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Old 01-07-2009   #5
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Re: Uno Fire 1100 idling slow to normalize.

Hi there,

I just had to get the mechanic to fetch the car again, forgot to take the pictures – sorry

It did not want to start and when it does, it idles very fast. Before I called him again, I just checked the timing with my strobe light and it was completely off the scale on the advance side, could not see the mark at all. The mec who worked on it told me it was set to 10 degrees. Also when I loosen the two nuts that holds the distributor, when I get it closer to 10 degrees, it is as if the distributor gets stuck and I have to move it with great strength, it is just in the 10 degree position more or less, above and below that, it glides easily, could this be some clue ?
Also when set to 10 degrees, the starting problem gets worse, it kind of fires but then cuts out.

The cam/crank timing alignment is as close to spot on as possible, the cam belt has about 20,000km behind it, not sure how to detect if it is messed up or not, it has square teeth and they seem fine, tension to, I would probably only know for sure if I compared it to a new one I suppose.

You see, last week, the car had difficulty indeling and kept on cutting out, then starting up difficult until a few minutes later, then it did not want to start at all anymore. When I turned the key, the engine spun over two or three times at regular speed and then thereafter with what seemed to be great difficulty, like it had resistance from somewhere...I could not get it going and eventually they sent the tow-in service to fetch it.

Got it back yesterday, but I noticed it was idling much faster than usual...the mec said there was water in the distributor...not sure how it got there as the only water that ever got near that part was when the same mec washed the engine with compressed water the previous week after replacing a slave clutch cylinder and the car then did not want to start. Eventually it turned out the ignition module situated on the distributor was blown. He refused to take responsibility for the damage and said water could not harm it. Logic tells me that it could be so, but if power is switched on and it is still wet, there could be a short etc.. There was definitely not water in the distributor cap as far as i know as I replaced it with a brand new one when I could not get the car to start as the old one was pretty worn down already and due for replacement anyway.

When I set it to 10 degrees, the car battles to start again...how on earth could this be possible? And why does it feel like the distributor gets stuck when I turn it closer to this particular position?

This guy has really delivered extremely bad service and I honestly do not know who else to turn to anymore, everyone seems out to take the cash and do half work and charge again to complete the next half, or simply just damage more stuff...

Since i got it back the first time after having the slave clutch cylinder replaced, from time to time it does not allow me to change gears, I can force them but that would then grind the gears...I then have to pump the clutch a couple of times before it allows me smooth shifting again...on my own I have tried to bleed the system and found some pretty big air bubbles in the fluid coming out through the fish tank piping I attached. Hereafter it seemed a lot better but this morning it started to get worse again. I checked the separate break fluid reservoir for the clutch and it definitely have dropped about 1cm since last week...logic tells me there is a leak somewhere, strangely enough, the same reason the mec said he had to replace the cylinder in the first place...

I don’t know anymore, I really feel cheated and have no confidence in the people anymore and not in the car either.

Please if there is anybody out there who could answer any of these questions or shed light on any of these matters, please help me!

Kind regards,
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Old 01-07-2009   #6
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South Africa 
Lightbulb Re: Uno Fire 1100 idling slow to normalize.

Call me on 031 2667021, get me a fax number - I could maybe fax you info to assist with the issues at hand. Sounds like this mech is just messing you around.

Barney
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Old 01-07-2009   #7
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South Africa 
Re: Uno Fire 1100 idling slow to normalize.

Quote Originally Posted by Barney vd Merwe View Post
Call me on 031 2667021, get me a fax number - I could maybe fax you info to assist with the issues at hand. Sounds like this mech is just messing you around.

Barney

Hi there Barney,

Thank you so much for your willingness to assist.

My fax number is: : 086 6093 301

I sent you and email also this past weekend to your hotmail account.

I am so disappointed about this whole story and almost depressed already. Thank you for at least creating a glimmer of hope.

Kind regards,
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Old 02-07-2009   #8
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Re: Uno Fire 1100 idling slow to normalize.

Hi folks,

I got the car back again yesterday afternoon after the mech was supposed to recheck the starting and idling troubles...nothing has changed. So I just parked it in the yard, took a long shower and went to bed early. This morning I got up and started rethinking things again to get some order to my thoughts with the plan being to sort this mess out without this moron messing things up further.

The first thing I did was check out the wiring and integration of a cruise control unit that the previous owner installed. It turns out it was just attached to the car, but nothing was connected up anywhere. I called up the previous owner to ask what the story is behind it and he admitted it was never completely installed because in the end they learned that the cost of drilling a hole into the engine to install some sensor would cost them a fortune...so they just left (kind of forgot) it in the car. I went to the car, opened up the panel underneath the steering wheel to expose all the goodies, and confirmed that it was not connected up at all, all the leads and things where just neatly taped together with some cable ties...I took it out anyways and this was the end of the theory that perhaps the thing was actually connected and causing troubles with the ignition etc...now it is out of the way and not a concern anymore.

Next I went for a propper test drive with it cold and warm and hot...the purpose to get a comprehensive grip over the idling and driving symptoms EXCLUDING the clutch story...

1.When I drove off it jerked once or twice, like it was cutting out and then starting up due to the momentum of the car, like a automatic running start kind of a thing. It did this a few times, not continuously. Its like a surge it gets. After a while as the engine seems to warm up (hotter than cruising temperature), it seems to subside more.

Preliminary Deductions (I’m not a pro remember LOL):
a.Faulty coil.
b.Faulty HT lead coming from coil to the distributor, at the distributor side of the cable, half of the contact is broken off inside the rubber housing of the HT lead, so it does not clip over the distributor nipple anymore, just slides in next to it I suppose with the rubber boot holding it in place.
c.Probably not a faulty plug as this is more random and at inconsistent intervals now and then.
d.It really does seem electrical but I suppose if for some or other reason it runs out of fuel it could also jerk and die.
i. In the case of fuel starvation, they had they air cleaner of during rain and windy weather last week and stuff could of blown into it, they are very careless.
ii. If it is fuel, then how come it starts back up again?

2.I then took it on the open road and pushed it to around 90km/h in fourth gear. When I get close to this speed, it would kind of surge again, like it looses power and stumbling over its feet kind of a feeling. Shift to fifth gear up to 100km/h and it repeats it there as well. Just to make sure, I repeated the experiment and there was continues consistency nearing that speed range. I pulled over next to the road and gave it a good rev (two actually). At the high end of the revs it misses, like a bad plug or something consistently.

Preliminary Deductions:
a.Bad timing.
b.Some sort of carb trouble, to little/much fuel/air kind of a thing. I’m quite scared of carbs. I know this moron messed with the air setting screw on the side of the carb when he could not get it to start after blowing the ignition module.

3.When I come to a standstill, the engine comes down to idling speed for say a minute and then revs up to a consistent higher rev for a minute or two and then drops down to normal idle again, this strange behaviour does not stop.

Preliminary Deductions:
a.Leaking carb seals – it is getting air in somewhere just not sure how it could be almost cyclical.
b.Perhaps a messed up vacuum advance pump – I have NO idea how this thing works (how it advances timing).

So after taking a few sips of fruit juice and rinsing the sea sand from my mouth ( I live in Jeffreys Bay and the wind is horrible today) I took on the following problems:

vProblem #2 as above.
I manoeuvred the car while in 5th gear until the timing mark on the flywheel was exactly at zero degrees underneath the bigger than other little triangle marking. I then checked where the marking on the cam pulley was in relation to the little chip marking it is supposed to be opposite off. It was spot on 100%.
I whipped out the strobe light and set the ignition timing a tad faster to around 15 degrees.
I set the idling a tad bit slower, it really cant be set any slower and is now maxed out completely.
I took it out of town again on the road and tore down the road in fourth gear getting close to 110km/h without engine jerking or stuttering as before, shifted to 5th gear and punched it hard to 130km/h after which I got scared in the strong crosswinds. Point is problem #2 seems to be solved, no more surging and jerking when nearing higher speeds.
On my way back it still jerked a little now and then when driving in the streets but did not cut out. The cut-out/jerking/surging at lower speeds of problem #1 as above is still a mystery and unsolved. I temporarily moved on the problem #3.

vProblem #3 as above.
I got hold of a can of Q20 (an all purpose lubricant/moisture displacer in a spray can) currently on special at Midas. With the air cleaner still attached (the wind is blowing badly around here and I do not have a garage to work in), I sprayed a bit on the left hand side of the carb. The idea being that if it is sucking in air, it’ll get a whiff of the flammable Q20 and race the revs (in theory at least LOL). Nothing happened.
So I sprayed a bit at the back of the carb, still nothing.
When I sprayed some on the right hand side of the carb, the engine immediately stalled !!! So I wiped it all off as good as possible and forced the engine back on again till it idled on its own again. Just to be sure the stalling engine was not a coincidence, I did this 2 more times and both times it stalled. So it did not race the revs but stalled, either way, I think it is sucking in stuff from the right hand side. When the wind dies down I will take the air cleaner off and target the spray better with the little pype nozzle it has to see where exactly the spot is. Could I be onto something here ???
After this bit of fun I took a spare piece of piping and plugged it into the vacuum advance pump on the distributor (the engine switch off). I was able to gently without effort blow air right through it and suck air back into the pype. Apparently this is NOT supposed to be like this and means a busted diaphragm. Is this really so?

Well this is about as far as I have gotten this morning. I am going to get the spares shop to make me a new HT lead that runs from the coil so long to start working on problem #1.

If there is anybody out there who could shine additional light on these problems and suggest additional cause I can check out, please help me.

To Barney thanks for getting in touch with me and your willingness to also help.
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Last edited by DigitalNomad; 02-07-2009 at 12:38.
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Old 02-07-2009   #9
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Re: Uno Fire 1100 idling slow to normalize.

Yes it is so, if the diaphram has split, you will be drawing air through the distibutor, up the vaccum pipe to the inleat manifold, resulting in a weak mixture (assuming your mechanic connected the vaccum hose back up behind the carb.

If it has gone, you can put a tight fitting blunt screw or bolt in the end of the pipe to seal it & then adjust the timing till it doesnt `pink` under load.

When you find a replacement vaccum advance unit, make sure you reset the timing properly (with the vaccum disconnected).

As far as the spray things concerned, it sounds like you may well have an air leak on the carb or inlet which will make it run even leaner, or possibly a split/damaged/loose accelerator pump or maybe the small anti stall pipe is damaged or disconnected.


Quote Originally Posted by DigitalNomad View Post
Hi folks,

I whipped out the strobe light and set the ignition timing a tad faster to around 15 degrees.
I set the idling a tad bit slower, it really cant be set any slower and is now maxed out completely.

vProblem #3 as above.
I got hold of a can of Q20 (an all purpose lubricant/moisture displacer in a spray can) currently on special at Midas. With the air cleaner still attached (the wind is blowing badly around here and I do not have a garage to work in), I sprayed a bit on the left hand side of the carb. The idea being that if it is sucking in air, itll get a whiff of the flammable Q20 and race the revs (in theory at least LOL). Nothing happened.
So I sprayed a bit at the back of the carb, still nothing.
When I sprayed some on the right hand side of the carb, the engine immediately stalled !!! So I wiped it all off as good as possible and forced the engine back on again till it idled on its own again. Just to be sure the stalling engine was not a coincidence, I did this 2 more times and both times it stalled. So it did not race the revs but stalled, either way, I think it is sucking in stuff from the right hand side. When the wind dies down I will take the air cleaner off and target the spray better with the little pype nozzle it has to see where exactly the spot is. Could I be onto something here ???
After this bit of fun I took a spare piece of piping and plugged it into the vacuum advance pump on the distributor (the engine switch off). I was able to gently without effort blow air right through it and suck air back into the pype. Apparently this is NOT supposed to be like this and means a busted diaphragm. Is this really so?
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Old 02-07-2009   #10
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Re: Uno Fire 1100 idling slow to normalize.

The other thing I meant to say to you is check the hoses have been fitted & seal properly, if they arent sealing, you will draw air into the system (& usually loose fluid too) every time you press the pedal.

He should have only disconnected the hose where it joins the slave cylinder on the gearbox, check theres no evidence of leaking round it.

Quote Originally Posted by DigitalNomad View Post

Since i got it back the first time after having the slave clutch cylinder replaced, from time to time it does not allow me to change gears, I can force them but that would then grind the gears...I then have to pump the clutch a couple of times before it allows me smooth shifting again...on my own I have tried to bleed the system and found some pretty big air bubbles in the fluid coming out through the fish tank piping I attached. Hereafter it seemed a lot better but this morning it started to get worse again. I checked the separate break fluid reservoir for the clutch and it definitely have dropped about 1cm since last week...logic tells me there is a leak somewhere, strangely enough, the same reason the mec said he had to replace the cylinder in the first place...
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Currently got.. 1981 Fiat 127 Super, 89 Panda 750L, 89 Uno 70SX (1.5), 90 Uno 60S, 93 Uno 45, 99 Sei Sporting, 2000 Sei Sporting, 96 Jaguar X300 Manual, 99 Jaguar XJR V8, 01 Porsche Boxster, 1989 Escort Mk4 Ghia, 2012 electric motorbike.. The 1990 Uno is the most fun!

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Old 02-07-2009   #11
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Re: Uno Fire 1100 idling slow to normalize.

A73UK

Thank you kindly for your confirmations and the tip with the vacuum pipe. Just to be clear, I will block the vacuum pipe leading back to the carb and leave the vacuum pump itself unblocked?

Also, how would this be fixed, do I need to replace that whole pump or just a part inside it? If I managed to find one at a scrapyard, with it not begin installed or anything, will I be able to take my piece of pipe with and do a similar test on the replacement (without it being attached to a distributor and all...)?

Thank you very much for your reply, I was so depressed yesterday about the state of things, but have taken on this project with renewed enthusiasm and with the help of total strangers from all over the world I seem to be making a lot more progress than the mechanics did in all this time and after all the money spent.

Warm regards,
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Old 02-07-2009   #12
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Re: Uno Fire 1100 idling slow to normalize.

Quote Originally Posted by a73uk View Post
Yes it is so, if the diaphram has split, you will be drawing air through the distibutor, up the vaccum pipe to the inleat manifold, resulting in a weak mixture (assuming your mechanic connected the vaccum hose back up behind the carb.
Hi there A73UK,

Just a side note of something I have noticed. You know the little air mixture screw which we are not supposed to fiddle with and which is kind of sealed at the factory...well turning it any amount has absolutely no effect on the idling at all, it used to though, long ago.

Perhaps this is also a confirmation that a lot of air is being sucked into the carb, so much so that this little adjustment screw has no effect anymore?

Regards,
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Old 02-07-2009   #13
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Re: Uno Fire 1100 idling slow to normalize.

Yes, you can leave that end disconnected, air getting into the dizzy wont cause any running issues, the problem is the air getting sucked the other way, to the inlet manifold causing it to run weak.

You have to change the whole vacuum advance unit as its a sealed unit that you cant dismantle.

It can be done in situ. To remove it you undo the 2 screws (usually tight, so use a screwdriver that fits properly & use alot of pressure to stop it slipping & damaging the screw head), then inside is a plastic ball ended bar, you remove this with a wide flat headed screwdriver rotated between it & the ball joint on the advance plate.

Refitting the new one is the reverse, but press the advance plate from the cap side with a flat head screwdriver to stop it getting distorted.

It is fiddly getting the socket back on the ball, but you`ll get there in the end.

Now all you have to do is find one...

In the UK, the cheapest place was Ricambio at around 30 for a new one.

What part of the world are you in by the way?





Quote Originally Posted by DigitalNomad View Post
A73UK

Thank you kindly for your confirmations and the tip with the vacuum pipe. Just to be clear, I will block the vacuum pipe leading back to the carb and leave the vacuum pump itself unblocked?

Also, how would this be fixed, do I need to replace that whole pump or just a part inside it? If I managed to find one at a scrapyard, with it not begin installed or anything, will I be able to take my piece of pipe with and do a similar test on the replacement (without it being attached to a distributor and all...)?

Thank you very much for your reply, I was so depressed yesterday about the state of things, but have taken on this project with renewed enthusiasm and with the help of total strangers from all over the world I seem to be making a lot more progress than the mechanics did in all this time and after all the money spent.

Warm regards,
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Old 02-07-2009   #14
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Re: Uno Fire 1100 idling slow to normalize.

Hi there A73UK,

Once more thank you so much for your detailed advice. I am in South-Africa. Certain second hand parts are quite easily obtainable, not sure about this particular part though, going to call them up just after uploading this post as well as the new pirate part sellers.

I will definately be back to post some results soon.

Thanks big time
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Old 02-07-2009   #15
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Re: Uno Fire 1100 idling slow to normalize.

Hi all,

Just been to the local generic part dealer to enquire about a price on the Vacuum Pump. They said no-can-do and referred me to a scrap yard and also mumbled the dreaded A word A for Agents. Will wonder off to the scrap yards tomorrow rather.

In the mean time, I plugged the vacuum pipe solid and secured it with a cable tie out of the way, took it for a test drive and low and behold, the idling is almost normal. It definitely did not rev up high anymore, just now and then a slight attempt which is abandoned almost instantly. I am suspecting that this last small kink is due to the other leak I discovered more or less on the right hand side of the carb. Will try to find it tomorrow weather permitting. In essense then my idling problem has been solved. It is also more responsive and comes down to regular idling speed faster than before. So a big yes check mark next to Problem #3. YAY !!!

Problem #2 remains solved, no missing when I rev it or drive super fast at 100km/h in fourth gear etc. So another big yes check mark next to Problem #2. YAY !!!

This now only leaves me with Problem #1, it completely cuts out from time to time and starts back up due to the forward momentum of the car, like a running start kind of thing. I am still suspecting electrical, but not sure. The HT lead from the coil is dodgy and I will try to replace it first thing tomorrow morning. It has no trouble starting after cutting out or under any other condition and fires first time round every time.

Could it be the coil? Is it possible for a coil to intermittently fail, or would it simply fail one shot permanently?

If someone could perhaps suggest a few other options I could check out, I would greatly appreciate it. We almost have this thing beaten.

A huge thanks so far to Y73UK and to Barney for faxing me the updated info and specs, my Haynes is definitely out of date and I am sure it will become very useful when I need to get that leak fixed on the carb.

Warm regards,

PS: I bled the clutch once more as a good as I could and it did not give any hassles so far today, touch wood!!! Going to thoroughly check all connections on the pipes tomorrow. Just got round to inspecting the master cylinder and there were no leaks anywhere near it, also at the slave cylinder, it is dry, could just be a faulty new slave perhaps.

I will later post another suspicion I have about this problem but I do not want to get on the wrong side of the Law of Attraction at this point in time
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Last edited by DigitalNomad; 02-07-2009 at 16:39.
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