General Whats next .......Leaking Drive Shaft Oil Seal !

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General Whats next .......Leaking Drive Shaft Oil Seal !

I've been trying to find a video which shows you what to do. I haven't found a good Fiat one but this Toyota one is pretty good in that it shows basically what's needed to be done. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQUUXnEttFs

He does witter on a bit, almost worse than me! but you'll get the general idea. Please note he's not using that chisel as an actual chisel (ie he's not cutting anything with it) he's using it as a lever. Also he confusingly refers to the snap ring as a "locking pin". When refitting the shaft I would be using my left hand to support the inner joint in alignment with the splines and ramming the driveshaft with my right hand (I'm right handed). The way he's doing it risks doing some damage to the end of the splines maybe?

I don't know Toyotas at all - and access may be problematic on them? - but I think having the box still in the car holds it steady and so gives you something to react against as you jerk whatever it is you're using as a lever?

Lovely day up here today, blue sky and nice and warm. I'm going to walk to the shopping centre and buy myself a new pair of trainers. Then, when I'm home again, I've got holes to drill for drainage in a couple of new planters I bought yesterday - Oh the exciting life I lead!

PS I like the look of that jacket - very "Mods and Rockers"
 
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I've been trying to find a video which shows you what to do. I haven't found a good Fiat one but this Toyota one is pretty good in that it shows basically what's needed to be done. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQUUXnEttFs

He does witter on a bit, almost worse than me! but you'll get the general idea. Please note he's not using that chisel as an actual chisel (ie he's not cutting anything with it) he's using it as a lever. Also he confusingly refers to the snap ring as a "locking pin". When refitting the shaft I would be using my left hand to support the inner joint in alignment with the splines and ramming the driveshaft with my right hand (I'm right handed). The way he's doing it risks doing some damage to the end of the splines maybe?

I don't know Toyotas at all - and access may be problematic on them? - but I think having the box still in the car holds it steady and so gives you something to react against as you jerk whatever it is you're using as a lever?

Lovely day up here today, blue sky and nice and warm. I'm going to walk to the shopping centre and buy myself a new pair of trainers. Then, when I'm home again, I've got holes to drill for drainage in a couple of new planters I bought yesterday - Oh the exciting life I lead!

PS I like the look of that jacket - very "Mods and Rockers"
Hi jock!
Aw thanks I like a bit of camo! My style is RELAXED ? I found a video on YouTube of a chap doing it on a punto …it all makes sense and I’m obviously capable my confidence wavers a bit when im faced with a new challenge
That new ring I bought the seller had to cancel as they didn’t have it! Typical!! So I’ve bought a second hand shaft from club italia hopefully the ring will be intact…. Of course this is only needed if my ring is knackered but hopefully it will be ok

Planning on tackling it next week when I’ve gathered all my bits
I’ve also found a garage called turin motors located in Leeds that are family run and specialise in fiats ….. so if I get stuck I could always give them a shout!

The weather’s been ok here today but it’s looking like rain now! Just finished painting and sealing my 2nd set of callipers then I can re build and keep as spares ?
 
I've been trying to find a video which shows you what to do. I haven't found a good Fiat one but this Toyota one is pretty good in that it shows basically what's needed to be done. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQUUXnEttFs

He does witter on a bit, almost worse than me! but you'll get the general idea. Please note he's not using that chisel as an actual chisel (ie he's not cutting anything with it) he's using it as a lever. Also he confusingly refers to the snap ring as a "locking pin". When refitting the shaft I would be using my left hand to support the inner joint in alignment with the splines and ramming the driveshaft with my right hand (I'm right handed). The way he's doing it risks doing some damage to the end of the splines maybe?

I don't know Toyotas at all - and access may be problematic on them? - but I think having the box still in the car holds it steady and so gives you something to react against as you jerk whatever it is you're using as a lever?

Lovely day up here today, blue sky and nice and warm. I'm going to walk to the shopping centre and buy myself a new pair of trainers. Then, when I'm home again, I've got holes to drill for drainage in a couple of new planters I bought yesterday - Oh the exciting life I lead!

PS I like the look of that jacket - very "Mods and Rockers"
Jesus I reckon that Toyota gearbox has been recycled by now ? he was giving it a few whacks! Yes I understand now how to lever it out I do have a pry bar and an assortment of large flathead screwdrivers as for it going back in at least I now know the tranny grease trick!!!
 
I was going to say, if it's the N/S one that's leaking, to check the gear change oil seal on top of the box first. I thought we had leaky driveshaft seals on both the Panda and Punto which turned out to be this seal and not the driveshaft seal. However I think you've already done that selector seal earlier? Didn't you?

As regards getting the driveshaft out of the gearbox - The end of the shaft inside the gearbox has a groove around it as does the output side of the differential into which it fits (it's a splined shaft). Sitting in this groove there's a spring ring (snap ring) which is a "snap fit" - hence the name. One set of these splines, usually the one in the differential, (but not always) has a chamfered "lead in" which, if you exert enough force on the shaft, causes the snap ring to compress and the shaft can then be withdrawn. The snap ring should come out still on the shaft.

The difficult bit can be getting the ring to compress into it's groove. Some just about fall out by themselves (that would worry me a bit and I'd probably fit a new snap ring on reassembly). However most need some "persuasion" to get them moving. This is my favourite "persuader" with a half inch square drive ratchet alongside for size comparison:

View attachment 218460

The end of the lever goes in between the back of the inner side of the driveshaft joint and the gearbox casing. Often I find levering against a retaining bolt head works well. I would caution against levering too hard though as you might crack the gearbox casing if you get really violent (I've never done this. I think you'd have to get get pretty rough with it, but it's as well to know it is a possibility). I find a "quick jerk" works better than a sustained slowly increasing application of force. If it doesn't pop out - and it will "pop" when the hold of the ring is broken - with moderate force being applied then stop and rotate the shaft a bit (maybe a third to half a turn) and try again. If you start applying extreme force you may find that rather than compressing the ring into it's groove the splines will cut into the snap ring and jam it. If this happens you've got a real battle on your hands. So be firm, It does take a goodly "jerk" to pop it, but if it's not moving rotate the shaft and try again in a different position. I've also seen myself with 2 levers, one on each side, "rocking" the joint from side to side if I've got a tight one.

Once you've got it out have a good look at the ring. If it's at all damaged or if the shaft virtually fell out by itself (most likely because the ring has lost it's "spring") then fit a new ring. The most common damage is that the splines may have "bitten" into it as it was forced out of the final drive (differential) If you see signs of this I'd renew it because, although it might go back in just fine, if you need to later remove it again it may well jam in place.
Just had a “moment” is this the correct seal that I need!? I’ve ordered it to collect tomorrow just want to check!

You can also run into problems reinstalling the shaft. The outer edge of the splines in the gearbox are tapered to help compress the ring. Typically you'll find there is a short length of shaft spline which you can enter into the gearbox which lets you get the splines lined up. Then the ring comes into contact with the end of the diff gear splines and a goodly shove is needed to compress the ring into it's groove. The problem, often much worse when you've fitted a new ring, is that the ring will drop to the bottom of it's groove in the shaft so can't properly enter into the chamfered "lead in" in the diff gear. People don't understand this just thinking "Oh, it's a new ring so it'll be tight, so I'll just hit it hard with a big hammer" then they are surprised when the ring gets "transmogrified" and, perhaps, irreparable damage gets done to the splines! The "trick" is to keep the ring centralized on the shaft with some grease. Here is a clip which shows the snap ring and how to keep it centralized with some grease: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s8VZShBB5k

The "special" transmission grease is a grease which melts into the gear oil so won't tend to block up small oilways inside the gearbox like, for instance, a normal wheel bearing grease, which won't melt. If you don't want to buy this special grease then Vaseline (Petrolium jelly) will do just fine as it will melt and emulsify into the oil once the gearbox warms up.

Good luck with it Chris. Be prepared for some oil to leak out when the shaft comes out. In my experience they usually come out reasonably easily with a firm "jerk" of the lever and you'll be very unlucky if you get a "difficult" one. When reinstalling they sometimes need to be "rammed" in with some determination but I find the plunge movement in the inner joint lets you use the shaft itself a bit like an impact hammer which helps seat the ring into it's inner groove. When you think you've finished give the inner joint a good tug to make sure the snap ring is holding it in place.
regards
Jock

PS If the old ring is in good condition and the shaft was being held in properly by it I tend to just leave it be and reuse it. If you fit a new ring it has to be worked onto the shaft over the splines which, I think, tends to expand it a bit and often then makes it a bit more difficult to get it started back into the diff gear spline.
is this the correct seal?
 

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Getting the right seal can be a confusing mess, especially as different stores list them under different names. Getting the correct FIAT part number is sometimes the only way to be sure.

I only recognise that crankshaft seal as I ordered one earlier this year, but confusingly was listed by the store as 'camshaft seal', which it isn't. With no-one on the other end of the blower during lockdown I just had to order it and hope for the best - luckily the right part turned up!

Wait tho - isn't yours a refurbished / reconditioned gearbox?
 
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Getting the right seal can be a confusing mess, especially as different stores list them under different names. Getting the correct FIAT part number is sometimes the only way to be sure.

I only recognise that crankshaft seal as I ordered one earlier this year, but confusingly was listed by the store as 'camshaft seal', which it isn't. With no-one on the other end of the blower during lockdown I just had to order it and hope for the best - luckily the right part turned up!

Wait tho - isn't yours a refurbished / reconditioned gearbox?
Yup that’s what I was told I was getting ? that was last aug & recently I had to do the seal on the selector (they informed me that’s not part of the gearbox!!!) when I asked about my warranty on the work
Now the differential seal! I’m guessing my gearbox wasn’t fully refurbished
This is EXACTLY why I do not trust garages!!!!!!! Obviously I have learned a lot since last aug and it’s infuriating how some men treat women when it comes to cars!
 
Well that's disappointing:( I would expect all new seals as a bare minimum requirement of a recondition:confused:

I know koalar on the Panda forum looked at a few gearboxes, and suspected some places were taking old transmissions, giving them a wipe and maybe a new input shaft bearing and selling them as 'reconditioned'. Sounds like a lucrative business. Or racket...

At least you've got the skills to do a far better job than the 'pros':)
 
Well that's disappointing:( I would expect all new seals as a bare minimum requirement of a recondition:confused:

I know koalar on the Panda forum looked at a few gearboxes, and suspected some places were taking old transmissions, giving them a wipe and maybe a new input shaft bearing and selling them as 'reconditioned'. Sounds like a lucrative business. Or racket...

At least you've got the skills to do a far better job than the 'pros':)
Your not wrong!!! I’m more angry than disappointed ? if your dropping a gearbox then why in the hell would you not replace the seals!!?!
At this rate I will have worked on more than half of my car talk about a late in life transition! I never imagined I’d be a diy mechanic ? but every cloud!! Yes I’m a tad more meticulous than most at least I’ll do it right!
 
when the gearbox is out its worth checking the input shaft for play.


with a new bearing in. There's should be no noticeably movement if you try and waggle the end of the shaft. A working gearbox but totally shot input bearing has about a millimetre of play at the end.

Not sure where I would draw the line in the sand before changing.


the nearside drive shaft normally taps out quite easy. Use a heavy hammer. A light hammer just bounces off.(I use a 2.5lB club hammer)


the offside can be a pain though. Sometime it just will not realise, try turning the shaft 90 degrees and trying again
 
when the gearbox is out its worth checking the input shaft for play.


with a new bearing in. There's should be no noticeably movement if you try and waggle the end of the shaft. A working gearbox but totally shot input bearing has about a millimetre of play at the end.

Not sure where I would draw the line in the sand before changing.


the nearside drive shaft normally taps out quite easy. Use a heavy hammer. A light hammer just bounces off.(I use a 2.5lB club hammer)


the offside can be a pain though. Sometime it just will not realise, try turning the shaft 90 degrees and trying again
I’m not removing the gearbox just the driveshaft for its seal replacement trust be that is enough for me for now!
If and when the time comes…… I will just replace the whole box for a recon one myself! But for me it will take careful planning! It’s very daunting ? but I suppose so was replacing the selector shaft seal … but I did it!
But thanks for the tips! It’s the passenger side that’s weeping oil but for now that’s the only place
 
I’m not removing the gearbox just the driveshaft for its seal replacement trust be that is enough for me for now!
If and when the time comes…… I will just replace the whole box for a recon one myself! But for me it will take careful planning! It’s very daunting ? but I suppose so was replacing the selector shaft seal … but I did it!
But thanks for the tips! It’s the passenger side that’s weeping oil but for now that’s the only place

correct

its very easy

unfortunately the seal is likely to be very tight

I dont own a seal puller. just on the limit of what my tyre lever could lever out

there always other means to the end.

carefully chisel out or a slide hammer being two options.

at the top of the bell housing, under the coolant pipes there's an inspection hole. If you rub your finger on the inside and its remains dry. The gearbox has probably got a lot of life left in it. If its oily on the inside one of the oil seals is starting to weep. Crank or input.
 
correct

its very easy

unfortunately the seal is likely to be very tight

I dont own a seal puller. just on the limit of what my tyre lever could lever out

there always other means to the end.

carefully chisel out or a slide hammer being two options.

at the top of the bell housing, under the coolant pipes there's an inspection hole. If you rub your finger on the inside and its remains dry. The gearbox has probably got a lot of life left in it. If its oily on the inside one of the oil seals is starting to weep. Crank or input.
I guess my first job will be to stick my finger in the inspection hole ? hopefully it’s ok
I’ve got a pry bar that I will be using (hopefully) to remove the shaft & seal I know I have to be very careful so I’m planning on being under the car for a while!

As for getting the seal in I’ll be tapping it in gently I’ve recently rebuilt 2 sets of callipers those seals were a bugger to get in but I did it!

In a nutshell there will be plenty of swearing … tea breaks scratches on my arms but all being well I’ll get there!
 
Lifted the inspection grommet and rubbed my finger inside its dry in there but when I rubbed my finger around the underside of the bellhousing it’s very dirty is this oil? Bearing in mind I had my input shaft re done last year could they just have not cleaned the bellhousing as as I say it’s dry
 

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dry is good (y) Just the normal clutch dust

input shaft bearing is likely to still be okay

they have a plastic cage. If the oil level get to low they overheat

In the first 2 minutes of this video he removes the drive shaft

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s-m8tjmuNM

remove wheel
remove pinch bolt and knock it out
brake the rust bond with a chisel in the slit not strictly necessary.
lower with a bar or knock down with a hammer the suspension arm
knock out the drive shaft
 
dry is good (y) Just the normal clutch dust

input shaft bearing is likely to still be okay

they have a plastic cage. If the oil level get to low they overheat

In the first 2 minutes of this video he removes the drive shaft

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s-m8tjmuNM

remove wheel
remove pinch bolt and knock it out
brake the rust bond with a chisel in the slit not strictly necessary.
lower with a bar or knock down with a hammer the suspension arm
knock out the drive shaft
Thank you! That’s a weight off!! And thank you for the tips it’s all helpful
 
Ok I’m a bit stuck ? trying to get the new seal in but there is hardly any room for me to tap it in any suggestions
I don’t have any pipe the same diameter as the seal and I’ve already broken one seal luckily I bought 2
 
Ok I’m a bit stuck ? trying to get the new seal in but there is hardly any room for me to tap it in any suggestions
I don’t have any pipe the same diameter as the seal and I’ve already broken one seal luckily I bought 2

You done the hard part (y)


smear some grease on the inside of the differential housing first


I did mine with the gearbox out and used a large socket to drive it home. The three seals I changed were all fairly simple once started.

there is a bit of a knack. If one side goes in first you have to apply slight more force to the opposite side


If you dont have anything the correct size. Draw round the seal on some mdf and cut out the circle with a jigsaw would work
 
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